This is something that has kinda baffled me almost from the first time I used a sync tone.  Virtually every time I download a track off here that has a proper sync tone at the front end, has a bit of a gap between the actual starting point of the track region (or track clip) and the actual start of the first tone.  Easy enough to fix by just zooming in and editing the silent part out and then lining up the track.  But, what I can't figure out is where the gap comes from in the first place.  As a test, I uploaded one of my very own tracks with sync tone.  I know for certain there was NO gap in the track I saved and uploaded.  But, when downloaded back into my project...a gap appears.  Its just a few miliseconds...but still, where does it come from? 

Its like there's a little gremlin out there in the ether whose sole purpose is to add gaps on the front end of audo files.  Anyone know what causes this?

Not a big deal, but my curiousity has the better of me on this one.

Donald M

I am not sure,but it might have something to do with the difference in lengths that MP3 and wave files seem to exhibit after conversion.Good luck!

are you talking about when you render to mp3 from wav donnie, as thats a known issue with the mp3 codec...it interprets the silence uneasily and tends to add even more samples from what i understand..a pain in the ass..it doesn't do it when rendering to ogg for some reason?

 if not then the perecived gap i think you're talking about is designed within the sync tone.technically it isn't silence but part of the thing...

  .you make the sync tone at the bpm of the track where possible..each of the 4 blips falls on a beat obviously, but there is a measured silent part assuming you use the raw wav sync tone...the start of the audio track should be tacked or crossfaded  onto the end of the silent part and will fall on the right beat for the start of the song its like having one bar basically and is why the updated sync tone maker you can select different time signatures... have a look at a sync tone in your daw that corresponds with the bpm you have in your daw....it should line up with the beat lines at each point, along its entirety and you'll see the silence isn't of an arbitrary length..hope that helps.

Thanks for the replies.  No it isn't just MP3 files, as I've noticed it with 24bit, 48K wav files, too.

Yes, my sync tones line up exactly right.  I did my little experiment on a wav file.  Sync tones were perfectly lined on the beat markers in tempo, with first tone right at Meas 1, beat 1. There was no silence space in front of the first tone.  Exported that file, uploaded to Kompoz, downloaded back, imported to my DAW (Pro Tools), and, voila, a small gap of silence shows up in front of the first sync tone on the track region. I KNOW I didn't put it there!  Who or what did?  I did this with a 24bit, 48k WAV. 

I've also noticed it when importing tracks submitted by others who also have sync tones.  Like I said, I can quickly zoom in on the edit window and strip away the silence just in front of the first tone, then line up the track per normal with the tone. But where that bit of silence gets added into the file is still a mystery to me.  I'm wondering if its something Pro Tools does when importing a file? Yet, I've imported other tracks off Dropbox on non-Kompoz projects, and NOT had the problem, so I'm not sure what it is!

For now, I'm going with gremlins!

Donald M

I've noticed the issue with tracks dumped into logic that other's produce, but I've not noticed (nor do I think I've tested) this on a round trip of a file I exported.

I'll check just to add a data point.

Like you, I always zoom in and align on the sync points, but I also check alignment on the tracks themselves against the grid.

One thing I've noticed is people don't always drop in the sync at the same point I have - in other words, I provide stem mixes w/o bass, or drums, or for vocalists. When they generate seps, often I find their sync tones out of alignment with where I put them in the stems. I assume they cut and pasted the sync wrong. I've also noticed people using different syncs than what I provide. lol...dunno what that's supposed to accomplish. But that's why I don't trust just the sync anymore...

I'm the guy who does this, blame me. This is sort of a peeve of mine... synctone alignment.

It shouldn't matter how much space is ahead of the synctone. NEVER use the beginning of any track as an alignment point. I always leave a random amount of space ahead of the synctone to force people to actually use the synctone to align tracks. People think I'm a pain because they can't just plop all my tracks into their mix and they'll be aligned. My synctone on new projects always goes at beat one of measure 2 in my DAW, but the start point of my exported tracks is some point in measure one (my blank measure). That way I have room to move imported tracks forward or back.

Remember, align by synctone ONLY, not by the start of the track. 

When I'm not the originator of the project, I'll take the owner's tracks, and copy the synctone from one track to the same spot on a "sync-only" track ahead of the master bus, lock it, and mute all the synctones on subsequent tracks. In exporting a track, I'll export my track and the sycntone track together. I never put a synctone on each track in my DAW, only on exported tracks... that would be redundant, and pointless... and redundant. The synctone track, being ahead of the master bus bypasses any effects or mastering, and in theory should be identical to the original on all exported tracks.

.. and like the rooster, I like to zoom in to sample level to align my synctones. In some cases (usually newbies) I have to ignore the synctones and feel the alignment using THE FORCE.

@MDK Marty, that's pretty much what I do to. I always leave 2 measures to play with at the front of every project.  And I only have 1 track with a tone on it when I export a mix or what have you. Totally agree on using only the tone to line the track.  I see you point in purposeless putting a beat or two in front of the first two to force lining up with the tone itself.  But the issue that started this discussion is not that.  The space in front of the first tone I'm talking about appears to be randomly added during up and downloading of files.  Again, its not THAT big of deal.  I was just asking out of curisousity as to what might cause that. But I'll bear in mind in the future if I download on of your files!! (Note to self- move Marty's files 2 beats left!)

I think I ran into this today.  I'm new here so I haven't really worked with sync tones. I usually Set my DAW for X numbers count in then add a click in the beginning manually.   I didn't want to re-align the track because I wasn't sure if it put my tracks out of sync. with the existing one's.  I've also heard sync. tones that seemed to be out of time with the song.  

the sync tone kompozer has a time and key setting.  not that i know how to use it.  but it's on there.  

shit. I've been putting my tones at the end of the song. They seem to fit better there

That's why I always start mixing your tracks backasswards...and I thought it was just me.

I believe we are a different breed Bill. If the end doesnt line up what good is it? hehe.

@Bill re: not muting efx; this is why on new projects I put the synctone on a separate track ahead of the master bus, and export JUST that synctone with each track. Imported tracks from others get their synctone muted. I have ONLY one synctone for the whole project. Same with projects started by someone else, except that I copy the synctone from one track to a track ahead of the master bus. There's absolutely no way the synctone can have any effects on it that way. The worst thing in the world to align is a synctone with reverb on it, or worse yet, a hi-hat click with reverb.

@V1C... I did synctones at the end a lot in the past and it works great. A lot of people don't like it... mostly the ones who have never tried it. There's no reason not to, unless you want to extend the song.

Never thought of putting a sync tone at the end of a track.  But I agree with Marty, use one uniform sync tone on the project. I created my own tones and like Marty, I keep those on a sep track to avoid having the fx and such affect them.

With Pro Tools, when I export a track "dry", I just highlight it and export as wave file instead of doing a bounce out.  That bypasses ALL fx on the track that I may have used in my own mix.  I don't know how other DAWs handle exports. 

Some good advice here about sync tones. Thanks:)

I have been doing what Donnie does; check alignment and slice bits off if required to line up exactly.

I try to ensure that sample/bit rate matches any project that I work with to help with consistency but I use mp3  format for everything until a final mix is intended.

Bandwidth is not so good here in Surrey:)

Donnie, I was just kidding about putting it at the end. I did it as a joke once. MDK, There is no reason why it shouldnt work but man does it sound weird after hearing it up front all the time

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@MDK - yeah, I do the sync on it's own track, and do the same thing for stem mixes, but logic exports faster than it bounces, and the file sizes are smaller for an export sometimes, so that's why I do the sync on each track.

And given the variety of sync mush I see from people uploads, in the same upload session, I imagine they do the same and forget the fx on their tracks.

Are you saying no delay or reverb on the sync tone?  How about a vocoder? 

+1 :)

I prefer adding a phaser.

I would add a phraser. 

I always play the synctone on trombone and then process it very heavily to make it sound like an electronic hi hat count. Then I put it in the place where you least expect it. No one except Sven-Martin appreciates this.

Yes. My favorite place for a synctone is 27 minutes after the song has started. The silent and invisible synctone is nice too. Those can go in the middle of the bass solo.

You can also tune your synctones. For each track you use a different tuning for a synctone chord.

Wow...you guys are...are...what's the word I'm looking for here...help me out!