...OK so I am a little pissed at this place lately and I have to get it off my chest.
I have gone through about two years now that I have had little or no time to participate as actively as I used to here. This is still the case but occasionally now I get brief windows when I can maybe hang a bit and play a bit.
Now I don't get too many folks jumping on my projects but whoever shows up, more so than ever, I am happy to have them and at very least I'll give em a mix or some form of inclusion...even if it isn't exactly what I heard in my head or that the contributor is new to this or thier chosen instrument.
I have said no to no one yet I am very comfortable with advising someone that although I appreciated thier contribution if I decided to publish a version it may or may not include thier contribution. As I don't publish much this isn't a big concern for me but I feel that you have to have the stones to let someone play but not necessarily have them "make the cut".
I have also contributed to many projects that I have not been included even in a mix...and don't care. I post them because I enjoyed your project, wanted to play along with it, put it up with no expectations other than because I had it and I had fun and if you don't include me I will still listen to your next project and if I have a similar urge will do it again.
The above to me is the cycle, purpose and heart and soul of the Kompoz "Public Project".
Inviting was and still is a way to encourage folks to join in and it is also part of that same heart and soul. I don't do it often except to invite folks to projects I have joined and the project owner needs help finding some folks to play. I myself always feel pushy inviting so I don't really do it for my own projects.
So...I have established that my complaint isn't with any of the above nor is it with the concept that you would really like it if a particular player threw their hat in the ring so you invite them through the system...all groovy.
It's this thing lately where a public project description now has to list...within minutes of being posted...all the players they have invited. Now I am not in the least bit intimidated by a soul here in the bass department and no matter who you invited if I was willing to be impolite or just bull headed about it I'd pound your project like I was hammering nails. But if you're a newer member or one with perhaps some reservations about going up against a Simon or Rob or Peter or well there is a remarkably long list of killer bass players here...as there are guitar players...keyboard players...sax...cello...you name we got em...well they probably are going to take a pass on even downloading it and taking a practice shot at it.
It's a cultural thing and no one is deliberately doing anything wrong nor are they being mean...I might think based on an answer I got from one person who had this on a project that I really wanted to jam along with and then just didn't bother because it sounded like they had their mind all made up. He simply said he didn't want to have to say no to anyone who came along, in the public project area, and contributed something.
Seems like just a cheap way to have a private project without a supporting membership or paying the private project fee.
Founded on a free and open society of musicians who just want to have fun, open to all ages and levels of skill, a place where people who start out with some skills have turned into monster players, arrangers, vocalists, engineers...Kompozers.
So go ahead and invite. I just wish no one hung out the you cannot possibly have a better idea or play better than...[insert your invited player here]. You could just accept all and pick what you want and have the guts to thank someone for thier effort, maybe give them some pointers and encourage them to keep it up...so far we have a ton of examples here...some who are often on that "invite message" posted in the description...of folks who started out at one level and now are...being invited.
His Imperial Majesty, Dank (SpinDizzy) Spinatra, Lord Archbishop of the 52, Bassist
Well written Spinster. My perspective (from a perch out here on this tiny branch) is that by listing the invitees you are shutting the door to everyone else. You are correct in that this is essentially a cheap way to form a publicly private project. And just because someone has been invited doesn't mean they will actually contribute or that what they do contribute will be any good. I have never understood why you would want to restrict the number of contributions to a project. Generally speaking it's hard enough to get any contributions at all. This question as to whether to invite or not can be difficult. I rarely invite because I don't want folks to feel any obligation (and I know some would). Then I learn that some folks will not conribute UNLESS they are invited for fear of jumping in somewhere they are not wanted. My early experiences on Kompoz were that jumping in was always welcome and expected. This was at the core of what made Kompoz different and exciting. As Kompoz has aged, this open freedom seems to have faded.
Just out of curiosity, what does "If a public project has all of the slots filled" mean? If I'm looking for a guitarist and one contributes a track, is that slot filled? For my projects, if the slots are filled, then I mark project as completed. No other tracks are being accepted. However until a project is complete, it is not "all booked up", the slots are never filled. There is always room for another interpretation. It may not get used, but why shut doors? Sadly, I feel most folks believe that once a track has been contributed then it would be impolite to add another. I just don't understand the "first come, first served" concept as it might apply to Kompoz. But that's just me.
Seems there are so many different styles of collaboration out here...in such a case, where the invite is all buttoned up on certain parts, but not all, perhaps the project owner needs other ideas, but wants to make it clear they have a preference...which if you, know what you want...no harm in stating that, right?...and as a contributor, what's the harm in starting a new project and putting your part in that way? It's CC after all. I can see from a project owner's perspective...and have seen...that multiple contributions can become overwhelming and managing the varied expectations of each artist /contributor can become very time consuming...take for instance the couch potato / Ryan Lucas tune...Haunted Heart. It ended up splitting into five because the creative visions were all amazing, just very different.
Guess it depends on how well you know the project owner and thier collab style too...there are times, I show up unannounced, forget to read the overview or intentionally ignore the invites and put my track in anyway... and no harm done if it's not used...got my jollies and if I feel it needs to be used, just make my own mix. I'm an equal opportunity offender...hee!
When it comes to vocals, I prefer to know if another singer has been invited so I can choose whether to put time and effort in....or move on and pursue another project. Sometimes a tune speaks to me and I can't resist it, so in those cases I never hold back. Other times, I'll listen and think...ohh...this would be an awesome tune for (insert fellow singing collaborator here) to sing.
it's good to vent though...and good to know your collab style Spin...pedal to the metal...open collab to all...yee haw!!
I guess that settles it then...the only good thing here is the ability to vent...yet another reason to just go completely private, store what I have away and contiue to court some locals for a real garage band...shame though...I really liked that piece that they wanted Simon for and he never showed...I'll bet you those kids in Russia that have some of the best chops I have heard in young people in awhile probably took a pass on that one...would've been nice to hear someone else cover tear up a double thumb or two...and the one that's going to have the slot filled by one of our better fretless guys...I would've just downloaded that one in a heart beat and hoped that they at least gave it a listen...he'll do fine though because he is good and he is a great fellow no doubt, certainly not his fault that he is good...I could start a new project but then it doesn't seem like anyone really cares other than the occasional "woo hoo"...funny how Brian was the most excited person at Kompoz durring his contest...and how cool he thought everyone was...and how he took time to really encourage everyone to give it a go...I liked that guy...oh did you think I was still on the venting subject and culture here at Kompoz...no no I'm sorry I left that subject several three dot instances ago...I really don't care...Kompoz decends...Clowns rise...the 52 sleep...counting sheep...in the deep...er registers of my bass...lines lost because I didn't...even bother...
whining...quite right my name changling fiend er friend...quite right indeed...already have a nice piece ready in the daw...an invite...back to work...no more decent comments or nonesense...it's another day...
LOL..... Kevin doesn't believe in calling a spade a shovel. I like that brutal frankness.
I see Mark's comments more as an observation he's made rather than "venting". There's good points made in this thread and have to admit I feel a bit like Mark some days - and I only push faders. Ann got it right about just working on a different version of a project to get your head to where it needs to be. Lots of examples of that happening here.
@Kevin doesn't believe in calling a spade a shovel.- You mean Kevin hits you with the shovel, you have to remember he's a registered thumper bash a ding dong martial artist.
Mark, you know I will always listen to you gripe, I think you've had to listen to me more so the imbalance there is notable. Get it off your chest and as Kev say I bark so as I don't bite, too true.
I think however it surprises me your thoughts on this as you once taught me to see things from others perspectives and in this case there are many reasons why someone would do this and they are all perfectly acceptable. Hec there's an Italian guy who's listed a project today exclusive to Italians only, should he not go private. As Kev said (I'm not trying to placate you you currnudgeon) there are many projects and I'm sure they will meet your ethical requirements. That is what we're talkiing about here, ethics, well to me ethics should demand that you respect the way someone chooses to manage their project as they see fit, as long as no one is harmed what should it matter.
Just because someone puts up a sign saying I've invited a certain instrument doesn't stop you from uploading to the track, I've seen others complain in the reverse that they weren't warned so a project owner can't win either way. No the answer is you keep your mind open to all possibilities behind peoples reasoning and move on if it bothers you but I know you already know that, you have said just that to me before.
On the lamentation for things Kompoz past I too feel sad at these statements, look I am not a pioneer of the site but I have been here for 2 years and in that time I have seen many changes and all for the better, to me I yearn for the now and the next day and what it brings. All of you originals are still here so if something has changed then it is you guys that make that so. All these new members can do nothing to stop you enjoying original times of bliss and inclusion that you so fondly remember.
My experience is mine but is markedly different to the one you describe, when I first joined it was less inclusive to what it is today, people such as Kevin, Ryan, Ann, Raven and many more have shown new ways to be inclusive. That's not to say others did not do so from the past they certainly did. I remember getting told how people resented how many tracks I played on and the fact that I looked like a hog, I just thought I was doing what the site owner advertised as possible but there were hidden ethics that others held. So the bottom line to me is if they are not harming you then don't impose your ethical agenda on others or you'll just find life disappoints you all the time.
disclaimer-I reserve the right to be a total hypocrite and at a later date to change my stance to suit.
Oh and Mark if you wanna hit Kev where it really hurts just tell him he's a great guy and man his kick patterns are just like Bonham, translated in Kev's brain this comes out as you are a prick and your kick patterns sound like a wayward drunk on a bender. Of cousre to compliment him you use google translater and select curmudgeon.
As fast as this place moves these days I thought maybe it would just go away fast and that would be the end of it. It is the main reason this wasn't some big personal blog thing or more than a black profile picture.
Kev was absolutely right in his comment to me and I was absolutely sincere in saying so and that I had moved on. I used to have these temper tantrum moments over what I thought might be a monumental mistake if we let it get out of hand here but I have not tried to go the whining route and I didn’t mean for my stream of consciousness dot dot dot form of just writing what comes out no matter where it leads to imply that.
I should have made my complaint much simpler and just a point of order kind of thing. I understand that project owners, even in the public area, should have some rights and I understand that with many folks that means they won’t win either way.
I should have stated it more directly and firmly.
I think it should be a cultural no no to include in your public project description any language that discourages contributions. You could in my opinion be clear about your vision for the project (which you may not have or your may have), you could even say you have invited several folks to participate to help you fulfill that vision…but no matter how you refine or communicate your desires for the project in that description if it is a public project it should include some level of encouragement for all comers even if you have to warn in advance they might not be included and only “considered”. It is why each project has two status settings “project track” and “auditions”.
This is certainly not a thing that I think Raf should run out and write a rule or code or even he himself go plead in a blog for this. It has to be something reinforced, as we always have, by guidance when we can give it, patience when it doesn’t take hold too fast, and hope that if enough of us keep walking the “open collaboration” talk it will be ok.
I was invited to a project, one Bull has provided a tutorial track for (I can’t tell you how cool I thought that was and how cool it was to hear your voice…we really must skype someday), by Cronz who I have happily contributed to before but for the first time I included this brief message:
“For you my friend anything!
Please however do not put in the project description that I have been invited. Although I am very pleased to contribute to your project, and you know in your case I have a history of that, I do not want to join the folks who are discouraging our fellow members to take a shot at any spot in a project.
I hope you understand but I am not pleased with how some folks seem to not want to help newer members get their "feet wet" and have a chance to play with all of us, like a family.
So, although I am very happy you invited me I want you to accept anyone's input into this project (not that I think for a minute you would be the type not to!!!!) in the old Kompoz way of "nice to meet you, thanks for your contribution"
...then of course only use mine because obviously I am the best! :0)
I will probably simplify it in the future but I figure it best to live what I say and to simply ask when I am invited for this small favor.
I will always love Kev for his bluntness and frankly fun attitude.
As I cannot speak Ood as well as Bull I am hoping that does not translate into “you rotten bastard I can’t stand to see the sight of your ever name changing profile pic which without the proper snout and Ood communication ball hanging from your lips makes you simply look…cartoonish.”
Besides I am still disappointed that he and I don’t play together more often…he is one of my favorites here.
Now enough of this discussion off to do a bit of put food on the table work and then hopefully buy a little bass time…hands are getting rusty from not being able to play a lot over that last few months.
Sigmund was a poser...his mother issues ruined my father's perspective of my sisters unfortunate lapse of judgment in lusting after a figure that represented only the worse parts of both sides of the equation which by now seems to be totally obfuscated by a turn of a phrase uttered, or perhaps uddered, in confidence whilst laying flat on one's back on a strange couch at $1250 an hour.
I had a dream that I had a Freudian slip. I wore it with a Pavlovian brassiere and autographed J. Edgar Hoover shoes. Kevin was there too, but he was dressed as Margaret Thatcher (whom I find terribly attractive).