Since we have guitar players shamelessly posting in the bass forum, I might as well... This post is coming from an amateur in terms of guitar playing. Although many kind people on Kompoz have rated my guitar playing somewhere between "passable" and "ok", I am primarily a bass player. This is a decision made way back, when I realised that bass players get more gigs than guitar players.

The thought I want to provoke is the one of rhythm guitar. I am constantly amazed of the technical - and musical - skills displayed by "lead" guitar players (as a matter of fact, this is another major reason for me to "give up" guitar as a main instrument). It seems that there is an endless stream of guitar players who can play mixo-phrygian scales up and down at 15000 BPM without breaking a sweat, but there are significantly fewer who can lay down a serious rhythm guitar.

Maybe I should first define the difference between what I call "technical" and "musical" as mentioned above? "Technical" is someone who learned how it should be, "musical" is someone who feels it (in my mind).

On to the real topic here: I feel that there is an underestimation of the importance of a good rhythm guitar, whether it be the rhythmical genious of Eddie Van Halen (primarily known for his lead guitar work, but in my opinion one of the 5 best rhythm guitarists in the world) or the incredibly intricate interplay between Keith Richards and Mick Taylor on "Honky Tonk Women" (if you haven't "studied" this tune in the original version, DO! It is so good that I can think of no better example of how two guitar players play "off" each other AND it is very nicely stereo-separated). Another genious in the rhythm guitar category has to be Nuno Bettencourt, and the list goes on and on... but, my question is, how do you practise? WHAT do you practise in the endless hours you spend at home trying to perfect your skills? And another question is, do you attempt to interact with the drums and bass or do you regard them as a "foundation" only? Please note: I am not talking about riffs, I am talking about how the rhythm guitar can enhance the groove created by the bass and drums. 

My opinion of how a guitar should be played is exactly this: Feel the rhythm, enhance the groove, AND enhance the melody of the tune. If you do this, you will get away with solos like the one on Led Zeppelin's "Heartbreaker" and even get it classified as one of the top 10 guitar solos ever played, even if it sounds like played with a broken arm :).

I am most likely preaching to the converted, but one or two of you may find my point of view interesting. Now, I have the greatest respect for "shredders" with a musical understanding, this also has a function, BUT, in my view, if you can't play rhythm guitar well, you can't play guitar well.

Just my 2 cents

Rock On

B 

ah....such a provoceteur you are!!  First things first...the fact you opted for bass could be seen as a cop-out, since you admit it was a way to get more gigs..I would say that since you still play guitar (and rather well at that)  you are attempting to be as complete a musician as you can..admirable. The "technical" and "musical" distinctions you cite are, to me, tenuous at best and could be aesthetically argued until long afetr the cows had returned from the fields. That said, the crux of your monologue, as stated in paragraph 4, does start to grapple with an important and often unexamined issue among guitarists. In response to the questions raised about the role of a rhythm guitar I can only opine a few thoughts. Remember please, these are only my musically uneducated opinions....The rhythm guitar interacts with both bass and drums, but not necessarily at the same time and that role may change as the song style changes. How do you practise it? well the same way you practise anything: repetition, repetition, repetition, and even more importantly by LISTENING to what the bass, drums, and rest of the song are telling you. In fact i would suggest for most amateur musicians the single most overlooked skill of all is listening. Although it may be useful for the rhythm guitar to "Feel the rhythm, enhance the groove, AND enhance the melody of the tune" It is not the ONLY way to play rhythm guitar. The proper way is as varied as music itself. As for my personal tastes, I prefer Bob Weir playing with Kreutzman, Hart, and Lesh any day to Mr. Richards...not a put down at all, just shows you that tastes vary styles. Of course in this world, the frontmen are usually the ones whose technical skills blow us away, and therefore lots of guitarists want to go there. I think that's great because that competition keeps pushing up the bar. But I also think playing really good rhythm guitar is an under-appreciated skill. But your last thought "in my view, if you can't play rhythm guitar well, you can't play guitar well." strikes me as an odd one. If I said that "if a bass player who can't play slap-bass well can't really play bass well" you'd think I was rather odd too. Just cause both lead and rhythm are played on the same instrument hardly mean one must do both to be a good guitarist! In fact I would say that by your definition Mr. Richards must a woefully poor musician...rather silly no? But then again..you did say it was just your 2 cents worth.  Thanks for a thoughtful topic B1..as always

Rocking on

B2 

DISCLAIMER:

I suppose I should add to the above that I can play neither rhythm nor lead "technically" well and perhaps "musically" only fairly well..My above opinions are based on what I wish I could do, not reality.

I would argue my point here. Rhythm guitar is to me the whole understanding of a song while slap bass can play exactly the same notes and colorings as fingerstyle bass, hammer-ons or with a pick. The way to hit the strings, I would separate from the choice of notes and the basic understanding of what makes the tune :), but of course, we are both right :). Good reply there B2, lets see if anyone else will get slightly annoyed :). Keith Richard' abilities can be debated, I was only referring to that one song (where it is perfectly possible that Mick Taylor plays both guitars)

Rock and roll

B1

But of course you are most wise Mr. Fuzz. At least you got annoyed by our prolific verbosity. That, I believe, means we succeeded. but then, as you are a drumster, are you not annoyed at all things  with strings?

Your point is well taken, I have much more to say but I wish not to cause you more trouble than I have already. 

as a quick response to B1...I also argue your argument..although you may be technically corrct about the manner of play in reference to slap-bass et al, it is still a question of undersatnding the needs of the music and the capabilities of your instrument. Is a piano a melodic instrument? a rhythm instrument? a percusive instrument? It is all of these and more. but because a musician doesn't need to use it for all these things to be a "good" pianist. That said, a pyrotechnic specialist at lead guitar had better have a rhythmic sense of the music or he's lost. Respectfully, B2

I have come to realize, that its not as much what you play, but when you play it. Which is sort of mirroring your point I suppose. I also agree that EVH is among the greatest of rhythm guitar players, but I would add that the outcome of his work is nothing without his brother on the drums. 

If you are an all around musician you should be able to pick up a shoe and make music with it.

2 cents.

 Pete

I'm a big fan of good rhythm guitar playing. There really are some good rhythm players at kompoz. One of my favorite examples is here.

All incredibly cool stuff without stepping all over the rest of the instruments.

M3 

That is good.

 I love rhythm guitar done right.

I think a little of both tech/feel is good but not together.

Know the tech feel the play.

Marty, didn't you do a shoe slapping song back a ways?

As I recall, you used a ink pen on the eyelets for percussion.

 I could be mistaken.

Boy, this topic went around the block in a hurry....  All I can say is I feel ya Bjorn. I have played with many technically fantastic players in my life and some of them could not create a melody or lay down a simple groove to save their life.

It doesn't matter what skill level you are or how many chords you know, it is all about creativity and playing to your strengths. You can seriously build an entire song around one note, its been done succesfully, even on here. 

I can really relate to the rhythm thing, I have been trying to get another guitar player to play leads yes, but also to play the rest of a song as the "second" guitar w/out much success. Torrie managed to pull it off in "It was Gray" and he did a great job of not trying to fill up all the space. Thats something that boggles my mind and its not just guitar players, I'm not sure why so many people feel like every note of every measure has to be accounted for in their playing...  Bass players are notroious for this too...:) putting tons of walking riffs all over and totally sacrificing the groove... like everything is a "jazz jam".  The "hey over here, look at me" style of play by any musician can distroy a wonderful song in a heart beat! 

Hey that was fun.... I got to have an opinion!

This entire Kompoz experiance is great, I'm glad I stumbled into this.... all of you guys are excellent in one way or another, everyone has something to offer.

X! 

Billy, I tried to read your first post in this topic, but had a complete meltdown in the process.  Did you give up paragraphs for religious or environmental reasons?  Did your return key fall off?  It's the big key on the right. ;)

I must agree with Bjorn on the Honky Tonk Woman thing.  It's an amazing song, one that I have butchered many times (video from yesterday will prove that).  It's one of my favorites to play.  And yes Bjorn, I have played it once or twice with an open tuning.  The guitar work (on the Stones' version!) is so good on that song.  Makes me want to dance every time I hear it.

I'm not a shredder fan at all.  I much prefer a good rhythm guitar that dances and compliments the bass and drums. 

And since you noted EVH, his rhythm guitar on "Finish What Ya Started " is a great example.  Image how awesome that song would be if it just had Diamond Dave...

Manny apologies Raf, my writing eflects much the sad state of my mind, paragraphically speaking. Expressing inwords these hings is not my strong point.

(New paragraph) 

      Sorry for melting down your mind...perhaps best if you skip my ravings. 

Practice? You are supposed to practice?

I like to think of it as second guitar, that is if you consider first guitar to be the lead guitar.

I also think second guitar can be percussive and rhythmic and some what melodically suggestive but sans lead. Second guitar does not always have to be chords and rhythm, it can be a pattern of notes.

It all makes for nice color.

My 2 cents or is this an additional 2 cents

Pete

Here's your two cents change, Pete:

I think I see lead guitar as icing on the cake in tunes that have vocals.

Of course, in the case of - to name but one example - Joe Satriani, it is something else. However, the art of rhytm guitar I was initially trying to explain is that of creating a groove by playing (or not playing) with very good song groove and color understanding.

Lead guitar is (basing this on rock) usually a lot easier to kutanpaste. Now, I have the greatest respect also for lead guitar playing, the initial purpose of this post was to lift the rhythm guitar and to explain that to me, the solo in Van Halen's "Unchained" is inferior to the rhythm guitar in the bridge of that song:)

I was promised a penny for this.

B

I do have to agree.

I do not mean to belittle the second guitar I think the rhythm part is more important than the lead.

With out that all you have little of nothing.

I think of it as if I was in an orchestra and how all the layers work together.

More of my background showing.

Lead or first guitar, as in first chair violin, play on top of the rhythm.

The promised penny,

Pete

I think this is a good example of a good rhythm guitar part. I may be biased a bit but it is a good example.

Pete 

Apart from the fact that you are incredibly biased and shamelessly plugging your own tune, in my ears it is good rhythm guitar playing. I, of course, think that this is not too shabby. Please not how the rhythm guitar interacts with the bass (not to shabby either) and bass drum (simply brilliant) and how little the lead guitarist understands of what the rhythm is all about:) Sadly, the lead guitarist went on and misunderstood the concept even further and produced this, but I forgive him :), being that plagiarism is the highest form of praise :) (I am kidding but at the same time making a point about rhythm)

Rock On

B

Very nice.

Your good B.

I like working and conversing with you.

Thanks

Pete