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Walking through the field on a sunny day
  Doing Things The Hard Way
Sat, Nov 27, 2010 • 12:39 PM UTC - By Casia-Lyricist

For some odd reason, it seems in order for me to learn something I have to have hands on experience and do it the hard, difficult way.  If anybody has any advice on stepping over this process, I for one would love to hear about it.

Took the morning with a backpack of Christmas CDs to the largest shopping centre in the area with hopes of putting some on consignment.  I figured it was a waste of time when I left the house this morning, but alas, I drove through the snowy, slippery roads anyways just to have it confirmed in my mind :):).  The store managers were all very nice and most of them informed me that head office does not allow that sort of thing because they don't want to be responsible for lost or broken goods.

I did manage to get the names of the companies that stream music to a variety of retail stores, some of the names of which I had never heard of before so I will google their websites and see if I can muddle my way in without paying.  Some of the stores have websites where artists can submit music directly and whoever handles their playlists may like your music well enough to put it on their playlists.  One young store manager was rather rude though and said their store is directed at 16 year olds (girls' teen clothing store) and she's sure they wouldn't play my music (without even listening to it), LOL.  I know she is right but I felt like slapping her anyways.  PLUS, I always figured Christmas music was rather universal and just didn't fit the normal stream of music. I may just submit a few songs anyways and if it works, I'll go to the store and say "hey, that's my song playing"  LOL - oh, dream on!!

I do have some good leads for stores that are independently owned that might show some potential, as well as CD warehouse locally which I already mentioned.  Of course HMV and places like that no longer accept indie music and headoffice makes up their own playlists so I've gotten the phone numbers to some of these places as well.  So overall, I may have a few leads which may result in some contacts so it wasn't completely a waste of time.

The store owner at the bookstore "Coles" was very nice.  She, as well, could not put the CD on consignment but she has a CD player in her store and plays the music she wants.  I offered her a free CD to play and she said she definitely would.  She also gave me permission to use her name and store in any of my promotions and press releases that it is playing in her store and has given me permission to drop off business cards in case somebody hears the music and inquires.  So, I will go back next week after preparing some custom "A NOT Ordinary Christmas" business cards to drop off.  I will also offer her a poster which I'll make up to put in her store window inviting people to come in and listen to some new indie music and where they can buy the CD.

My next adventure will be to the independent gift stores and coffeeshops.  I will also get in contact with the woman I spoke with in Kitchener who will stream our music to 12 revenues in her city and ask if maybe I can help her company attack the Ottawa market and get in good with them as they expand throughout the major Canadian market and learn their process.

I don't know how it is for you "guys" in other countries, but there is a network of women in business here helping other women and this will definitely work to my advantage, therefore your advantage.  Women seem to like to help out other women as much as they can, especially the 30+ women, for some reason, who aren't spending all their time pursuing relationships and competing for guys, whatever :):)!!!  Anyways, I need to get connected, it'll be fun.  I'm pretty sure in another year or so I'll have a much better handle on the marketing and distribution of music and some new insightful contacts to add to the pool.

The internet has changed the process of making music dramatically ... why am I "knocking on Doors"??   In general, I still think people like to see who they are dealing with.   I may offer a talk one evening at a quiet venue possibly to discuss on-line collaborating and sell my CDS ... but really I'm shy.  My head tells me I should do this but my body isn't so willing.  I'm a bit nervous.  Chapters offers some evening talks and even the libraries do although it's getting late in the game, December is upon us.  I will be giving three CDs to the Ottawa Public Library to live in their archives for all eternity LOL!

I also found a local supplier out of the process which was important to me.  Their prices are competitive, maybe not the best, but competitive and I like having control of what I'm getting.  They were very responsive, dropped off material for me to review and met my deadline with no problem and the final album looks great.  This will be handy for small run orders of specific genre EP albums with you guys.  I know a lot of summer festivals here have little tents where they sell CDs from the artists who play but they also sell CDs from local indies.  Not everybody know this but I worked a festival last year, that's how I found out but forgot about it until now.  I will definitely be contacting the festival people and vying for a spot in their booth with genre specific music:  blues festival, jazz festival, folk festival, etc....an opportunity for people to listen to something new and the homegrown crowds seem to like that. 

Later..Casia




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Lonnie
  Lonnie on Sat, Nov 27, 2010 @ 08:38 PM UTC

We did a studio recording a few years ago with our little local trio. Steve Vai's studio in the hollywood hills, we were pretty proud of it. Original songs with a somewhat christian message. Anyway, I took it to a couple of locally owned little christian bookstores and got the same kind of disinterest. They didn't want to listen to it. They didn't want to read any of the lyrics. They didn't care that we were one local non-profit organization trying to partner with another local organization. They just frowned and said no.
I didn't offer sexual favors, maybe that's the ticket.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sat, Nov 27, 2010 @ 09:09 PM UTC

Having spent a little time as a A&R man for a some what important label that also did internet sales .. I can tell you this ..

Most internet labels that promise to get you into established places (such as iTunes, and Starbuck's, and what ever) .. and promise to promote you .. have you pay a fee (supposedly in order to promote your stuff) and actually do very little for you if anything at all.

It is economics my dear.

Say for example .. you own a label that distributes to online stores .. say that you have 2000 albums from various artists up for sale. And each artist pays you $500 to get abroad. Of that 2000 albums only 10% will do really well. So .. here is the question .. of the pool of money that you have in order to do promotions .. will you spend it evenly across the board (promote each and every album) or will you focus that money on the albums that will give you the best return?

Of the $500 .. $400 will go to the shop (employee costs and internet costs, etc) and $100 can be used for promotions.

2000 albums (supposing 2000 different artists) 2000 X 100 = $200,000.00

Out of 2000 albums there are only 200 which will give you a significant return while there are maybe 1000 that will dribble and 800 that will not make you a dime even if you spent a measly $100 on promotion (and that ain't much!)

So what you are going to do is spend MOST of your promotion money on the 200 albums which WILL give you a significant return.

Most stores you walk into are chains. They stock whatever the main office tells them to stock and have no mechanism to stock anything not on the main office computers (which the upload their sales info to each night). So there is just no-way what soever - that they can adopt your CD from you walking in.

Where you can go (a lot of underground hip hop people have done this) is non-chain stores. For example .. that little 24 hour gas/snacks/ciggettes store run by and Indian or Pakistan etc.. that CAN (if they want to) put your CD on the counters sold for $6.00 and they get $2.00 of the sale. Once you get a store like this - visit it each week to get you $ and to restock.

They have to put it right on the counter near the cash register so anyone getting change - can't miss it.
   
VRun
  VRun on Sat, Nov 27, 2010 @ 10:07 PM UTC

i believe for Bobbie McGee, it took a helicopter and buzzing a certain "stars" home to land in the yard when he appeared outside and put the tune right in his hands. I believe Mr. Kristofferson did this to Mr. Cash. :) Girl, you gotta sneak in through the back door, past the stupid roadies and go straight to the big guy. :)))
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sat, Nov 27, 2010 @ 11:02 PM UTC

The writer Wayne Dyer (self help books) when he first convinced a publisher to try him out .. purchased every copy printed (made it look to the publisher like his book was a hit) and put the books into his car and drove from city to city stopping at every book store .. making a deal and spent months driving around stocking all these small book store.

You gotta look bigger than you are if you want to get in the door.

Also - with music - what the label wants is your fan base. If you already have a big fan base (proof your album will sell) you got a leg up. But if you don't have a big fan base to bring to the label .. they will not look at you.

It is all about money. The label wants to make money off of you. If they think they can do that - yer in. That is one reason they look to see how big your fan base is (that you will bring with you).

Other than that - it is like fishing. They throw out all kinds of bait (albums) then they watch to see which albums look like winners - and they put their promo money into these albums.

The exception is - connections.

My brother in law is friends with the chairman of a huge (shall remain un-named) record company. You would die if you knew which one. He just dropped off two bags of promo CDs including Susan Boyle's CD (you might be able to figure out the lable now).

Does that do me any good?? Nope. Of course I haven't tried to take advantage either. But I am not in that league anyway. It's just a hobby for me now.

Without a fan base to bring to the label .. without a track record of sales already - no matter HOW good your music is - they have no proof that you are going to make them any money. So without that - you would be a drain.
   
BullZephyr
  BullZephyr on Sat, Nov 27, 2010 @ 11:09 PM UTC

I would've thought if it was as easy as walking into a chain store and doing a distribution deal, many acts with the funds would have already done so. Lots of young gigging bands sell their own merchandise and the smart ones give away their music on line as well as at the gig, some just build the costs into their ticketing price.

The days of selling music the traditional way are numbered if not altogether gone, the market is flooded. I'd just keep enjoying yourself and keep your dream alive, there's nothing wrong with pursuing your joy but one has to be realistic.

What you're effectively asking people to do is buy a new flavour of ice cream without people getting a taste. Now you have to remember they've already got the big sellers like chocolate and vanilla and lots of other flavours and no ones coming in asking for cassia flavour unless you first get the public into it. So that's what you have to do is give it away and even then you'll be surprised how hard that will be to do.

Ray's idea has merit but what about you go one step further and offer the cd's to the merchant at cost and try to keep your costs low, (think of it as promotion after all you're completely unkown) you can't be serious about a business plan without factoring in promotion and you have many competitors. Maybe even have singles that merchant can give to the customers as a reward for spending so much at the store. You provide the promotional signs and draft your idea for them with samples and let them think it over. Bottom line you're not thinking of what gain they get from helping to promote and sell your merchandise which is totally unknown.Before you say they get their cut forget it, store space is money and there are products already proven that get those spaces.
   
billy
  billy on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 08:29 AM UTC

These guys are all right. It's not about the music. It's all about how much potential $$ you bring to them. Without an existing fan base.. pfft. It's not about the quality or the message. How many brilliant writers are never published? How many fabulous musicians never get recorded? You want to get your stuff out the door? Give it away, give it away by the thousands.. If people like it, then they'll want more. If you want to do business in the recording business, you have to bring something to the table to make them want to eat. Just remember, to the big boys it's a business for $$. It's not about your music.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 08:47 AM UTC

Thanks guys, some good food for thought. I always factor in money for promotion. Let's see, thanks to this site, the CD cost me nothing to create. But I've spent $450 on product to give away or do as I please and that's my budget, and that gives me 100 CDs.

The chains can't accept anything AT ALL anyways, everything has to go through head office and if I only have 100 so that's kind of useless to them.

I will be giving several to local radio hoping they will play the "local" artist and giving them some to give away so that will take 1/2 my supply and giving to CDs warehouse and freebies to venues who'll play it and I'm out of product. So yeah, it takes money to make money so, I can't afford to buy anymore to give away, unless everyone on the project wants to pitch in and it's too late in the game it should have been done a month ago. And, that's only the local market ... one city.

Your ideas will help me with my next project and some serious planning and brainstorming is in order.....thank you.

Never give up, never surrender :)
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 09:59 AM UTC

@Andrew .. your comparison with selling and ice cream flavor is right on!

I worked for a software company and made them lots of cash - the owner bought his new house with - cash from his pocket. Till .. along cam Microsoft and was willing to lose a few hundred thousand dollars for how ever long it took to capture the market with advertising and give aways. Well.. we could not match THAT advertising budget - so Microsoft won and we downsized to almost nothing.

Advertising a new product is (as you say) essentially giving it away for a span of time in order to build a 'fan base'. The old 'free sample' thing.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 10:19 AM UTC

@Bill .. you said "How many fabulous musicians never get recorded?"

Oh how true .. or make a few albums but fade away because they are making music that only other musicians will buy. Albums that don't make enough money.

On the other hand .. Lady Gaga .. sex and shock sell. Gaga is sell-able.

@Casia .. when I worked for the software company our product made it into the chains for awhile. Walmart, Staples, etc.. and you can't even do that by yourself. There is a middle man company that the chains use. So we had to get into the middle man company (signed with an agent) who then pitches to the chains. And yo can't get with an agent unless HE thinks your product will make money - in turn he convinces the chain that your product will make money for everyone.

Then - everyone takes a cut. The contract is negotiated - the chain writes it in its favor - the agent writes his contract with you in his own favor - and you get the smallest piece of the pie. You have no choice because there are a hundred products behind you wanting to get in the door .. and they will accept even less money than you .. so you sign.

But if yer in a few major chains that is still huge (in comparison to what you had before).

On the other hand there is the do-it-yourself internet. You make less money - BUT - you get all the money. No agents, etc..

Get yourself a LightScribe capable CD copier, get inserts printed, buy plastic cases, press your own CDs. Assemble.
   
VRun
  VRun on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 11:57 AM UTC

See, ya'll think distribution and record deals. I just think...what would happen if a big name artist wanted to do one of those songs for their big Christmas CD?
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 12:31 PM UTC

Ahh .. Carolyn .. that (I think) would be more doable. Still a craps shoot but ...

What has to be done in that case is identify the people (agents) who buy up copyrighted songs for use by big stars.

My son's group (hip hop people) sold 'beats' to a big star in South America. These are the 'kids' who began by selling CDs in 24 hour convenience stores.

Songs by virtual unknowns and they buy the rights to it.

But I am not up on how that is done.

Does anyone here know how that works? (I don't).

I once sold the copyrights to about 300 of my tunes ... a flat one time payment. No royalties involved. But I knew the guy so it was direct (no agent). I didn't get that much either. So I don't know how one does that for a living. But I believe one can.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 12:36 PM UTC

Perhaps we should start a blog here at Kompoz .."How to Gorilla Market Your Music". From reading this blog here .. there are a few people with good advise.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 01:08 PM UTC

I think there are a lot of people on this site with good advise and if we all band together maybe we can make something happen. I sometimes find it rather negative, even if it's fact ... time to make some "attitude adjustments" and start making things happen the way we want don't you think. We gotta get in and start talking to people. Time to get our voices heard.
   
SpinDizzy
  SpinDizzy on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 01:17 PM UTC

Likely we would need to form our own sort of "label" or a distribution company would be more to my liking. If you strategize, package and price something correctly and take it to "underserved" locations as a consignment item it is possible you could drive considerable sales of the right kind of musical product. Like many have mentioned it takes organization. They probably said "label" but really any sort of business can approach another it simply takes a level of "marketing" to do so.

There are hundreds of small regional grocery chains (as an example) who are regularly taking items on consignment (even some food brands work this way) particularly at "impulse" locations like cash registers or just as you enter a store. If you had an organization that was (again an example only) putting together CDs with specific genre themes made by "the best musicians in the world today" I could see, but only on a large scale effort, succeeding to create potentially new outlets for independent groups. How much they are compensated would be the part I would question as margins are often thin a best in situations like this, meaning your not going to get a large number of folks rich and maybe spread profit so thin as to make it unattractive to the groups themselves.

Nonetheless if you were to take say all of the Kompoz podcasts, press them to CDs and then hit store chains (grocery, clothing, music etc.) with an impulse consignment item in mass you might get somewhere. If you did the viral nature of project itself (success in independent music distribution) might just draw even more attention to indie.

Just random thoughts in a very good discussion.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 01:34 PM UTC

I think that's a very good idea but when you say mass, how many copies are you thinking, 5,000+. If it could be done as you say with the kompoz podcasts, although a lot of it's the same people, I know I'm not good enough to get on there, but that may trigger smaller groups on Kompoz to get in as well using the same method.

Looks like we have some research to do. And, I'm always willing to talk to people.
   
dogbizkits
  dogbizkits on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 03:01 PM UTC

So... without any doubt, it's all about money and having/making the right connections within the music industry. This takes luck, sexual favours, blackmail or simply getting there by being a close relative. We know it's not about talent - as evidenced by some of the utter crap that's is well enough connected to get their CD's onto the record store shelves. Yes it's a very shady business - but like any business, it's only interested in making a profit. If we're being realistic, the "fight" to get the music we make to a a buying public would more likely happen (as Mark Says) by forming our own sort of "label" or a distribution company.
   
SpinDizzy
  SpinDizzy on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 03:29 PM UTC

It will take turning Kompoz into a music production and distribution brand. That would involve a bit of compromise and some very reasonable heads at work on what, where and when.

As always my brain is game.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 04:12 PM UTC

As an experiment, why don't one of you take the sexual favors end of things and another the blackmail, I'll try the "luck" and see who gets there first :):).
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 04:28 PM UTC

Welp - I like the spunk here!

Having said that .. the world is certainly ready for a Creative Commons and/or Independent United ... distribution system.

Who is it that will be spending his/her free time and pocket money to launch such an enterprise?

It has to be at LEAST three to five people who will put in time and pocket money with no thoughts of any kind of return on investment - for at least a year.

A CD pressing machine (LightScribe capable multi-copy machine - maybe $500), CD cases, printed inserts, web site, hosting, etc.. and shipping costs.

You HAVE to start there (online sales) cause (if successful) that is what will fund your next step - getting CDs into physical stores.

any success will be meet with resistance from the associations. Threats, intimidation etc..

anyone here ready and able for that?
   
BullZephyr
  BullZephyr on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 04:45 PM UTC

I'm going swimming this afternoon with a golf club raised high because I think i've got more chance of being eaten by a great white whilst being struck by lightening than making money from music.

I'm curious too, if you're pitching to certain artists then who are they and what you've got to understand if you did have something they wanted they'd just alter it enough so you couldn't claim it, knowing you don't have the money to take them on. If you think you're pitching songs this way then ask yourself how's it workin for you so far. Songwriters pitch their songs through middle men and artists will never hear your songs this way. They don't trawl the internet nor do the middle men, they're careers are too time consuming for that.

Dolly Parton has written well over 3000 songs that's an average of over 60 per year and that's a common work ethic amongst published writers. So do the math, most of us haven't done 60 in a life time let alone per year. Whether you want to admit it or not it is a numbers game, people with this sort of work ethic have a better understanding of what works and what doesn't and don't hesitate over minor detail. Unless you work at these aspects what your doing is trying to walk out on a sporting field with little or no preparation and no team and win the superbowl, good luck.

Artists like Lady Gaga are their for 3 reasons, they're persistant (now you've got that covered) they've got the right connections (you don't have that covered) they can deliver, on time and consistantly what the market wants (well some of that is unknown so no tick here either and besides you have to put together an album so it's the work ethic again) so in baseball terminolgy you're standing at the plate one ball away from a strike or home run but my god that pitcher's awefully fast and your bat is pretty small.
   
billy
  billy on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 04:46 PM UTC

@Ray.. you no likey Lady Gaga???
   
RB
  RB on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 05:07 PM UTC

If you're just trying to give the music away, there's another avenue than trying to produce physical product.

1. Bundle the album up as a zip or rar file.

2. Get it hosted somewhere (for free... plenty of places for that).

3. Create a business card to promote the album (Name, link to download, artists etc).

4. Go to VistaPrint or similar place that does good business cards for free (just pay shipping).

5. Hand out your business cards to promote your album.

6. Track the downloads to see if you're getting anywhere.

To push physical product, you could set up a booth or table at a local Christmas festival or craft-type fair. Play the music on a player and sell copies of the music. Or sell the biz cards (for less money) with links to download.

You won't make much doing any of this, but if $$ is what you're after, this would be one of the cheaper routes to max any profit.

As a comparison, it cost a friend of mine just over $19k to produce a professional CD last year. (Grammy holding producer/engineer, well known jazz musicians, etc.) She's made exactly.... nothing on the product. But she did get some mag and radio reviews and continues to make some money on performance. Will take her a while to dig out of that hole though. Good luck.
   
BullZephyr
  BullZephyr on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 05:07 PM UTC

I agree with the it's time to get positive comment. I positvely know I want to keep making and learning about music and collaborating with people who share that love too.
As for making money well that's not one of my interests but I think it's good to dream and you've gotta be in it to win it. The time involved in it would rob me of my reason for being.

Rick's advice is on the money for me.
   
VRun
  VRun on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 05:19 PM UTC

this is gonna end up somewhere good...however, i think that running it up to the tour bus and making them play it while you highjack it for a while is the best bet. :)

Pop that shark Bull!

P.S. Vista makes beautiful 3x5 business cards. Full art.
   
dazzlefly
  dazzlefly on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 05:45 PM UTC

Amen to that Andrew!! I spent (or wasted) a lot of time trying to 'make it' in the industry. We worked with several producers out of LA & Nashville and had all the right connections. Eventually though, we would have to tour to promote an album and virtually become the property of the label that signed us. That's when some in our band decided we had other priorities and decided to do what we loved simply for the pleasure of it, not to make a living.

Our lead singer became a promotor for Warner Brothers and she eventually became the sole promoter for Creed with Wind-up. Later she and several others (and mind you, these people knew the recording business inside and out and had all the connections needed to be a success) spun off and created their own boutique label. After struggling for about 5 years, they gave up because their resources were limited and they could never get enough exposure for their artists to take off....they were constantly outgunned by the big labels who have all the power and resources. IMHO, without big label backing, the odds are seriously stacked against you....although that is evolving. I have no crystal ball to see how indie artists will fare. But one thing is for certain...it takes a multi faceted strategy to be a success...many live performances, someone dedicated to promoting full time, and a strong marketing and advertising strategy and budget. Trying to do it all on your own is exhausting and sucks every ounce of creative energy out of you.

We had the most success by meeting big label producers and artists...it's all in who you know. Some in my band would go to Namm and various music industry conferences to make connections...that's when the producers and artists started coming out to work with us..one was Liberty DeVitto...and now I'm dating myself...LOL!!
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:07 PM UTC

This is all very good reading and I'm enjoying this conversation very much. It doesn't deter me in the least ... guess I really do have to learn the hard way. It just spurs me on actually. Giddy up - I'm ready for a ride, there's gotta be a way.

I've always been an observer, never doing something until I was sure I could do it. Never walked til I was almost two while my siblings were falling and bruising themselves. One day I just got up and walked .. ran I was told. Same with talking, my parents thought there was something wrong with me LOL, never talked til I was ready. Never rode a bike until I was in grade four - just got on and rode away, never fell.

I've always been like that. Well, I'm ready for this challenge!! Started writing just over two years ago never wrote in my life. I have over 400 lyrics and 200 completed songs, one album done, three more done in the next few months. I'd like something to happen and I won't stop until it does :):).
   
joel_sattlersongs
  joel_sattlersongs on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:21 PM UTC

Justin Bieber made it
because his Mom put him on youtube.

If you go that route,
make sure the TITLE of your video is killer.


Somebody out there could make a million bucks
creating youtube videos for aspiring artists...
   
dogbizkits
  dogbizkits on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:26 PM UTC

A brilliant response, Ann. It shows the profound difficulties of trying to "make it" and gives us a reason to question our own contentment. Is it enough to be happy making music and developing our art - or has it become more important to pursue fame or an income (however small) from that art? The cards are stacked against us - and when the time spent trying to "make it" exceeds the time spent making the music itself, something is wrong and we end up unhappy as a result. Yes, Justin Bieber made it because his Mom put him on youtube - but he's ONLY seen as something marketable by the sharks out there. It's really nothing to do with rewarding many years of experience, dedication and talent.

EDIT:- The reference to Justin Beiber in the comment by joel_sattlersongs below has been removed. However, I'll leave my response in as it relates to a very popular artist promotion mechanism which can get you lucky.
   
joel_sattlersongs
  joel_sattlersongs on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:31 PM UTC

"fame or an income"
would be merely a validation
of all the hard work we've put into this over the years.

The chances of making real money at this
are a million to one.

Every year,
millions of kids play basketball
at the high school and college level.

Every single one of them
dreams of being a pro.

Only about 50 will make it to the NBA.


There's a lesson there...


.
   
VRun
  VRun on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:39 PM UTC

See! And everybody i know has been to a NAMM show but me. I think i was working and doing laundry. you'd think a single girl had the time, wouldn't you? Hmm...screwed up.

I just remember i read about a group of guys that are all high level execs in marketing, sales, what not. They banded...put out a line of ZZTop type bearded stocking caps and started off with initial orders of over 40,000. Guess they were really good at that stuff. :)
   
dogbizkits
  dogbizkits on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:45 PM UTC

And where would all these parasites be without the artist ?
   
joel_sattlersongs
  joel_sattlersongs on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 06:59 PM UTC

Too many fleas, not enough dogs.
   
BullZephyr
  BullZephyr on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 07:39 PM UTC

Well I can see now that you've got it all covered as for who gets there first with what method i'll put my money on the sexual favours and blackmail look what it's done for Madonna.
A wise man once said "it's funny the more I practise the luckier I get"
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 07:57 PM UTC

@Billy ... Gaga?

Nah .. the ONLY shill like that I have some respect for is Aguilera, who, in my opinion, actually can sing. Easy to look at too. huba huba!
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 08:33 PM UTC

@Rick ...

This is what I did for Lonnie .. for fun ..

http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/76097
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 08:52 PM UTC

@deMeridan: That's three months, how many have you sold?
   
BullZephyr
  BullZephyr on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 09:09 PM UTC

Ray you get the Epidermolysis bullosa award.

It's a shame more people don't take advantage of your skills Ray, you're a fine musician and person and you do a pretty good Jagger for an old hippie. I concur with your appraisal of Lonnie his voice has the character that brings Jazz,Blues, Rock together and he is a lunatic.
   
dazzlefly
  dazzlefly on Sun, Nov 28, 2010 @ 11:13 PM UTC

@ Ray...You rock!

@ Casia...please explain your last remark... I don't understand.
   
EnricoNic
  EnricoNic on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 03:14 AM UTC

I wasn't patient enough to read all the posts and maybe I haven't understood the point, but have you considered submitting your album to Magnatune?

http://www.magnatune.com

Just a hint.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 04:49 AM UTC

@dazzle - my last comment!! I was asking Ray how many albums were sold. I understood that Ray was helping Lonnie and I was curious how many albums he (I guess Lonnie) has sold??

@Enrico - I just checked out Magnatune, they take 50% wow. No I never considered them? The Christmas album is for sale on Reverbnation and 38 on-line stores around the world which includes all the major ones: amazon, itunes, Cdbaby, spotify, lastfm, wallmart ..
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 05:29 AM UTC

@Casia - no albums are sold. Jamendo is a free Creative Commons site. I COULD set Lonnie up with CD Baby or another service (physical CDs) that sell CD - or Lonnie could get his own materials and create physical CDs and sell them from a web site .. but neither Lonnie nor I wanted to do that. He just wanted his stuff heard by more than just Kompoz people.

There is online gorilla marketing that can be done but I don't think anyone can make a living at it unless they worked at it 24/7.

So Lonnie and I did it just for fun.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 05:37 AM UTC

@Andrew .. thanks for the compliment and the award (I think?) but I have so little time as is. Someone I am collaborating with right now is asking me to teach him how to mix/master (I am not the best but do OK) and I have to say "I don't have time (sigh)" because it tales a lot of time to mix/master (for me anyways) and I have plans to come over to YOUR projects and see what I can do to ruin them :) er .. I mean .. collaborate.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 05:44 AM UTC

@Casia - I think the ONLY way you can increase sales is via youtube vids. The more popular your vids are the more sales you will get.

There is a snowball effect in marketing. People look at how popular something is - and trust the public - so the more hits you have - the more hits you will get.

There are (shhhh) underground services that will use tricks to bump up your view count. I know someone (shhh) who used one service and in three days their count went up substantially. This gave them a real boost in sales.

all is fair in love and marketing.

But I can't point you to this service, and I never used them. When I did software marketing I had other methods which we more ethical.

Gorilla advertising is the key. Day after day for months. I takes about 6 to 8 month of gorilla advertising to see a significant return. But once the snowball starts rolling it is good for another 6 months to roll by itself. So it is more than a full time job. IF .. you are good at it and if you are lucky - yes - you can be very successful. But what you get is money - not happiness.
   
dogbizkits
  dogbizkits on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 05:56 AM UTC

That's the problem, Ray.... there's no ethics when it comes to making money. Whether it be making music, bombs, bullets, books or burgers: Big big money is big power, and these things are most often corrupt all the way to the top of their respective "structures" - but that's another debate.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 06:07 AM UTC

Casia - tonite I will tell you the story of how my two sons made a local hip hop group successful enuff to build their own recording studio using gorilla marketing.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 07:09 AM UTC

Look forward to it Ray. I don't want fame or fortune or even money (although the money would be handy) and I certainly don't want to be in any spotlight. I just want to see if I can do it for the Hell of it ... just something to prove!! And, because I think you guys make great music that should be heard by more than Kompoz, that's all, nothing more ... plain and simple!!

And, there is a market of music lovers out there who are not interested in the mainstream music and I just want to find out what rock they are hiding under.
   
joel_sattlersongs
  joel_sattlersongs on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 07:13 AM UTC

If you're out front, then you are "in the spotlight".

Goes with the territory.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 08:16 AM UTC

Yes Joel and that is an issue for me, believe me. I'm a behind-the-scenes type of person so I am struggling with that!!
   
joel_sattlersongs
  joel_sattlersongs on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 08:22 AM UTC

Casia: I wish I could sing half as good as you.


Here is the biography of a songwriter who "made it":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Warren
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 11:35 AM UTC

Thanks Joel. I know of her and am told by some I write better than her LOL LOL! Not sure about that but anyways I have tried to reach her but she won't return my calls hahaha!

I don't think you could have heard me sing because I only sing in the shower!!!!
   
joel_sattlersongs
  joel_sattlersongs on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 11:52 AM UTC

Okey dokey
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 03:55 PM UTC

@Rab .. I agree with you (from experience) entirely. I have worked for millionaires and for the Federal Government .. and let me tell you .. money and power will bring anybody down. Ethics are only for the poor to practice (as far as the wealthy are concerned). There are rare exceptions I guess but ... Boy! I could tell you stories!!

So I am poor now and ... LOVING IT!
   
EnricoNic
  EnricoNic on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 04:01 PM UTC

@Casia - I see now the 50%-50% thing. Some time (years) ago, when I used to buy CDs there, they had much fairer percentages as far as I remember. And I see also that apparently it's no longer possible to buy a single CD. Sorry, I didn't know Magnatune had changed.
   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 04:36 PM UTC

@Casia ...

I will try to make this short.

My two sons were friends with a group of boys .. they grew up with.

One day they decided to do hip hop music. Rap. So they purchased a keyboard with synth and began to fool around.

Pretty soon there were 12 of them and they entertained friends.

Then it got more serious and they came up with a name (ConnArtists) and started to make albums. My youngest son did all the graphics and my older son was the accountant like manager. Another boy was the push and founder (most aggressive one).

So they created hip hop rap albums and went to every little non-chain store they could find in three towns .. and got a bunch of them to stock their albums on the counter at checkout.

$5.00 each.

Now that is cheap and the album art was terrific. I think (but not sure) the store owner got $2.00 of every sale.

Did they make much money on that. Nope. Hardly any. But it was terrific promotion.

Where they made money was concerts and ticket sales. Either they headlined or shared the stage (and shared ticket profits with the other 'bands'). Of course the bigger the guy they shared the stage with the more tickets sold.

Anytime they had a gig .. they also printed up real slick flyers. About 6X8 and REALLY glossy and the art was terrific. And they would spread these around as well.

So at least 12 people were involved in doing all this. Non-paid - just for fun. But very serious.

Eventually - they made connections with other hip hop artists in Florida and else where. They became very popular in Florida for some reason.

And they were contacted by a big hip hop star in Latin America (forget what country) who wanted to buy 'beats' from them. Music. I am pretty sure a contract was signed because they asked me all about that stuff and how it is done.

They now had enough money to build (rent) a studio in Hartford and equip it. I am pretty sure that they also took clients (people who wanted to record something) in the studio.

Of a sudden .. the star rapper .. was killed by a hit and run driver. A terrible tragedy because his father had died from cancer only weeks before. Mark (Marxman) was very close to my sons and was treated in my house like another son. My wife and I are 'mom and dad' to many kids from broken homes. There is plenty of that going around. Boys who try to grow up with out any father there to talk to.

Things kind of began to unravel for several reasons (the death of Mark, other people claiming to be Conn-Artists but were not) but most pivotal is - that time in life when boys become men.

So for a group of 3 (the core pushers) to .. at time 12 people .. all running around stocking stores and passing out flyers .. they did real good!

But the money was in the concerts and negotiating their cut of the ticket sales.

Several times - some larger hip hop house tried to swing deals with them but - it was just to use them and toss them away. I warned them and they listened so that never happened.

I am not exactly sure what ConnArtists is doing right now. I think the founder (Justin) is still doing something there but what .. I don't know.

http://www.myspace.com/connartists

The lesson here is the amount and energy which must be put into promotion - before the snowball will roll.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 06:40 PM UTC

Wow! Thanks for the interesting story Ray, just what I like to hear.

I'm not interested in CD sales at all and obviously not in performing. My sites are set on other opportunities. And, I'm definitely NOT interested in the US market and maybe not even Canada.

I've had most of my luck in the Eastern European market, but that's not my initial target either. I have specific niches I'm targetting in far away lands in indie films, product branding, venues, etc. through distribution companies and DJs. So if anyone has advise in those areas I'd really appreciate it. If not, I'll venture off on my own.

"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve"

My first goal is to get lots of songs done and organize my current portfolio of 200 songs or so into categories for presentation purposes.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 07:03 PM UTC

I stand corrected, thank you. My portfolio of "our" songs :)...always "our".
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Mon, Nov 29, 2010 @ 07:49 PM UTC

Is that grammatically wrong? My Portfolio of Our songs meaning it's physically in my hands like a CD or a book or a piece of paper.

Like ... my book of your poems LOL! It's not your book because I have it for whatever reason ... and you're not getting it back haha!

Uhmmm ... I paid for the medium (CD) that the songs are on, does that make it my CD of our songs??
   
dogbizkits
  dogbizkits on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 04:04 AM UTC

I think I can see where Andy's coming from in as much as "ownership" of a collection of work is concerned.

There's ownership of "items" which have been compiled and presented on a physical medium (i.e., a book of poems or CD of songs) - and there's the "items" contained within a book or CD which come under the term "intellectual property". If these items have been brought together by teamwork, their ownership (by legal definition) would be non-exclusive and therefore could not be claimed to be owned by a single individual. This is probably where the "my" songs interpretation could come under fire from time to time. The devil is really in the way information is presented - and (of course) on how the reader makes their interpretation.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 04:50 AM UTC

I see where you guys are coming from and just so you know in all my promotional material I HAVE been saying "our" album as far as I know. And regarding verbage, yes, presentation and interpretation are certainly two different things and I certainly meant no disrespect. The exact oppposite...we all are part of the whole that make this work.

I have a few times verbally said "my people" and I hope that doesn't offend anybody (my collaborators). I could have said an international collaboration of musicians that I work with but that was long and not so cozy and if stated one or twice in a document or interview becomes old. I do think it's important to be represented as a close knit group of people!! I have been told many times that "our" music sounds like it was created by a closely-knit band that has worked together for many years and that's quite a compliment. I can't say "my bro's and I"!!

"My Porfolio" seems different somehow as it is a representation of the some of the work that I have done when I present it to others and of course it includes many people with a homebase from about 5 different sites but working out of two sites. Especially if I happen to be targetting somebody who was only interested in lyrics and this shows what others have been able to do with my words. This in turn may result in somebody wanting the whole package!

Anyways I won't go on, I think this particular topic of "our" is closed!!!! Have a good day!
   
BullZephyr
  BullZephyr on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 05:18 AM UTC

I plead guilty to misinterpreting from time to time, all too easy with text.

Rab your description is pretty true to what I was thinking.

I conceded that the "my portfolio" is correct as a point of grammar as Casia questioned, it does comply to syntax as far as my limited knowledge can ascertain.

I'm merely suggesting that I believe it wouldn't foster the development of self-efficacy in those who made the music.
   
zotz
  zotz on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 01:40 PM UTC

Reverse Shop Lifting.

Might work with a local place that does not want to give your stuff a try.

read about this once in an article on computer POS/inventory systems and the need to handle anything thrown at it.

Price some CDs and sneak them onto shelves. Keep checking to see if they have sold. If they are gone, you have...

1. sales
2. theft
3. found and removed

If 1. then you may get them to stock.

The person in the article had done it with magazines iirc.
   
zotz
  zotz on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 02:14 PM UTC

   
DeMeriden
  DeMeriden on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 03:51 PM UTC

@Casia (if your are still here) I can't tell you too much about independent music for films .. but I do know a little having worked for about a year with a British sound studio that did indie film scores.

Firstly - the market for songs (full songs with vocals) is small. Mostly what they want is film score (background music that sets the mood for when the guy dies, etc..). For actual songs .. indie films are usually local and in the local language but must fit whatever it is being used for. Also .. as few instruments as possible should be used. Think - acoustic .. as more than likely some dialog will overlap at least part of the song. Usually only about one minute of the song is used.

Royalties are anathema in the indie world. If you mention royalties or any fee collection agents - the conversation will end. They want only flat fee one time payment to use your song. An indie film company has no mechanism to keep track of royalties and pay you.

Mention right up front that you will sell them a non-exclusive licence at a flat fee.

Songs for indie films usually go for about $350. But do try to negotiate higher .. $500 is pushing it.

If most of your songs are in English - your best bet is to research and find local indie film organisations. They tend to party together and word of mouth would help.

If any one knows more - please speak up.

Good luck.
   
VRun
  VRun on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 03:55 PM UTC

Hey ya'll...one of my hometown gals...a great vocalist...she did 18 years studio time...last month she released 20,000 CD's. She recorded, mixed, packaged, the whole deal. They went into a regional fast food chain's coupon packages.

after all that...she went on a short vacation...:)
   
LucidDreaming
  LucidDreaming on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 04:43 PM UTC

I'm still laughing at the idea of reverse shop lifting! It is like music + the strange performance art to go with it!
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 04:59 PM UTC

LOL Drew, now that's being creative ... not sure I'm comfortable with that LOL!

@Ray, thanks, yes I did know that but the refresher is always good.
   
zotz
  zotz on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 05:54 PM UTC

@LucidDreaming

Supposedly the computer program borked on a divide by zero error.

Simplified, percentage sold for month = # sold / # on hand at start + # received.

since there were none on hand and none received we have # sold / 0 and things blow up. (Without the proper checks which was the point of the article. To plan for and handle "impossible" situations.

"reverse shop lifting" and "reverse shoplifting"

@Casia, which are you not comfortable with, the reverse shop lifting or the lottery ticket idea?

   
LucidDreaming
  LucidDreaming on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 06:43 PM UTC

Hey, I'm not saying that it couldn't work... just that it's funny to imagine Casia furtively stashing the X-mas CD's somewhere on the impulse buy shelves... (do it Casia!) Lol!
   
zotz
  zotz on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 08:28 PM UTC

@LucidDreaming oh I know

It is a funny thought and would be fun to do. If anyone tries it, be sure to post results...
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 08:29 PM UTC

@Lucid, hmmmm, desperate times call for desperate measures hahah! Yes, but I would get away with something like that, that's the odd thing :):). My innocent smile and pleasant demeanor sometimes works to my advantage... I just don't look threatening no matter how hard I try.

I used to work at a big retail chain for awhile and I still have the uniform they use and it hasn't changed. I could walk right in and put it at the point of purchase and as long as I do it with confidence, the teenagers at the cash won't question my authority hahahahah! I just need to photocopy some fake coupons for $1.00 off if they buy this brand new CD this week. Oh, I know how to over-ride the system if the price doesn't show at the checkout too hahaah!

But what to do about those cameras :):).
   
zotz
  zotz on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 08:32 PM UTC

@Casia, If you can do coupons, tie them in to a web site to track things.
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Tue, Nov 30, 2010 @ 09:04 PM UTC

Now that part I don't know how to do?
   
zotz
  zotz on Wed, Dec 1, 2010 @ 06:07 AM UTC

customize each sticker something like this:

http://casia.com/afrc14x
http://casia.com/jkdfiun
http://casia.com/86905m4

make some offer to get people to log in and give some info in exchange for something.

would have been better if the customized URL could have been inside the shrink wrap if they are shrink wrapped.

I hear if you collect fan details you should be sure to get zip codes but am not sure how important that is to how you are operating.
   
SpinDizzy
  SpinDizzy on Wed, Dec 1, 2010 @ 07:13 AM UTC

In another thread Casia asked me for a link to where the Korean record company that re-released my bands 1977 album on CD (and eventually repressed in vinyl). Now for me it was an experiment in how small lables are releasing multiple older LPs that will be consumed by their countries niche of listeners.

Yet this lable has not only released it to thier Asian and European outlets (much to my surprise) it will be available on Amazon.com December 7th.

Here is a link to the Amazon preview of the CD (they also have some short samples of the tunes):

http://tinyurl.com/sweetmayacd

Now unfortunately the lesson here is that you may have to wait, as we have, 33 years for your music to age enough for someone to be interested in it because it is a "rare find".

It may also point to a growing "niche" audience all over the world who are willing to listen and perhaps even pay for non-mainstream and, frankly, different types of music. It is this "Internet Long Tail" form of marketing and distribution that relies on the global reach (read borderless) of the Internet to find small pockets of customers for a niche product.

I am particularly encouraged by the growing interest in both analog (seems to be a drive even in professional circles to reinvigorate analog in the production cycle) and Vinyl LPs. I would not be surprised to see some artists releasing, perhaps even new music, exclusively on vinyl. It would still be possible to bootleg a vinyl record but many may not care if they have a strong enough niche audience willing to buy vinyl, particularly if you can price it higher than a now standard CD or music download.

Don't know but I did want to share our mysterious success overseas with an LP that we recorded so long ago. It seems music, like water, naturally seeks its own level.

I know this was a little off topic but I did want to share. I am talking to our Korean lable on a regular basis now and seeking to find out how open they are to accepting and promoting newer efforts by a wider range of artists. On that front I will keep you all posted.

@Casia - It took me the better part of this year to work this deal with our Korean friends so it was not without its pain and the whole time I thought it was a scam but went forward anyway. If you are willing to walk door to door trying to move your album...well it may not yeild all you hope but you have my deep respect for trying. Without being willing to try it is an absolute certainty you won't succeed, either with music or anything else.

My compliments darling for your infinite energy and unrelenting wish to leave your mark on our collective musical history!

Dank (Recently "signed" artist clown) Spinatra
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Wed, Dec 1, 2010 @ 09:25 AM UTC

Thanks Spin, this is all very interesting and well done. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Well, I am new to this so I have to try it all just so I know. I NEED to file that into my head somewhere and it only stays there with hands on experience no matter how many books I read.

There are niches everywhere, the trick is finding them. Where are the fans hiding? There are certain pockets of the world that really like North American music and I think everybody spends too much time trying to access the almost impossible US market. Indies will never make money that way.

My production house that I used to produce my small run has also indicated how popular vinyl is becoming though I had read that somewhere about six months ago too. Is it time to invest some money into the "turntable market"? The younger generation is still fasinated by 60-80's rock and things do have a way of coming back in style. They do vinyl as well for about $15.00 each approx. (depending on qty) and with that, they also give you a CD. So a record and CD for $15.00, that's not too bad really if you have the upfront money to purchase. But don't quote me, I didn't get a firm price or anything and may have missed something as I was focussing on getting my own run done.

   
markmiller
  markmiller on Wed, Dec 1, 2010 @ 09:27 PM UTC

A great promotion...$100 bucks to make and 113,000 hits since yesterday...hmmm

<a href="http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&from=sp&fg=shareObject&vid=8914f19d-9276-4024-bfdb-a1d2440f451f" target="_new" title="Man creates viral video love letter for girlfriend">Video: Man creates viral video love letter for girlfriend</a>
   
Casia-Lyricist
  Casia-Lyricist on Thu, Dec 2, 2010 @ 04:58 AM UTC

Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) ... personally, I think it's great! $100 to make, how much to send viral. I had read up on viral at one time and all I got out of it was it's rather underhanded and I could never really figure out how to do it completely without asking for a lot of favors from people and posting in places to piss people off who end up clicking on it even if they didn't really want to and thus you get a hit. How did this catch on?

Do you know what the title was?
   
markmiller
  markmiller on Thu, Dec 2, 2010 @ 05:34 AM UTC

You can read the full story here
   
LucidDreaming
  LucidDreaming on Thu, Dec 2, 2010 @ 10:34 PM UTC

Clever!
   

 

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