stephsomething / Steph Something
This goes out to the audio engineers out there... So, while I have been a part of this community for about four months now, I am still figuring some stuff out. I have been going into the mixing process assuming that someone who says they can mix, can actually mix, thus not feeling the need to say anything about my feelings on mixing my vocals with autotune, vocoders, pitch correction, etc. My thoughts on autotune, vocoders, etc... I am not a fan, unless used properly, meaning, VERY minimally, so as to not even really notice it. Any great sound engineer will tell you that pitch correction should only be used sparingly and only if absolutely necessary. It should not even be noticeable in the mix. I am here to have fun and take pride in any finished collaborations I am a part of. If I sound like a robot or the notes I am singing are completely altered, I immediately become disconnected from the tune and bummed out. Making music is ALL feeling for me. Fuck it if there are some pitchy spots on a dry vocal sep. As long as the mix sounds good and everyone sounds like their hearts are in it, that's the sweet spot. And completely altering the notes I sing is a bit offensive to me. If you want something other than what I contribute, you could get anyone's vocal to change all the notes you want, but I'm really not okay with that. That said, I suppose I work best with people who play music that makes them feel something, over people who are strictly technical. I think the worst part is that instead of letting you know where you are off and giving you a chance to correct it yourself, many engineers just take the liberty of doing it themselves without even telling you, and that's just a shitty way to work with people if you ask me. I would never do that to any tracks that people contribute to my collaborations. If I can't fix it, and very minimal pitch correction isn't doing it, then I am not the right vocalist for your tune. It's that simple, and that's perfectly OKAY! :) I'd much rather be given the boot than have my vocals so mutilated that I become detached from the project altogether. With that, the question I have for the audio engineers out there is this... Do I need to immediately make this known prior to mixing? I feel like it would come across as offensive to those of you who understand the concept of the proper use of pitch correction. I certainly never want to offend anyone, but I also want to be very honest about this subject in particular because it is hands down the most reoccurring issue I have had during my short time here. Oh, and one other thing I have noticed... a few times, people have actually listened to my thoughts on the subject, but tend to limit actual vocal effects altogether, which end up not mixing well with the instrumental in many cases. I love vocal effects, and use all kinds, depending on the song. At the end of the day, the effect/s are added to my natural vocal and the notes are not changed. So, what would you all consider the most effective and respectful way to communicate these things, and when should this communication occur without offending anyone? I'm going for quick, blunt, and respectful. :) I really appreciate any insight or advice on this!!!
9 people like this: liljoe6string, EllenDXY, MammaRainbow, xd238, Elle66, Aces38, Redfish, Joolsmusik, Wire-and-Wood
Blunt is good. Ive had ths problem before several times and i do just disconnect from the song, and generally from the collaborator as well. No disrespect to them and we remain friends, i hope. Its the musical equivalent of plastic, to me, and it really sucks for these changes to happen without any consultation.
Whew, I really thought I was the only one! Vocals are extremely intimate and you give so much more of yourself when you perform a vocal track over, say a guitar track. I know, because I play instruments too. So, I think that is why that disconnect occurs. Sometimes it is almost heartbreaking, really.
Hi, love this interesting post! I love honest artistic criticism, it's how to get better I think. ...But don't forget that you're dealing with artists here and some of us artists have BIG egos and some of us artists have teeny weeny delicate ones and some of us are gods on Earth and you're sooo lucky to be working with me type of egos, the upshot being that despite your intention of only wanting to improve the song in an organic way there's a big risk factor of offending by saying what you actually think/ feel, I know by experience! Couple that fact with this is the Internet where 'what you meant' and 'how I take it' can be opposites and honey child yo gonna line yo self up to go kick a hornet's nest! LOL Having said that, you're both great vocalists! and in high demand so you'd probably get some leeway cos most people here don't/ won't post vox and are desperate for vocalists, especially a singer who can perform with energy and really elevate a track (I bet both of you are thinking... 'Aaw thanks, he's talking about me!) See? Ego!! lol
Very well put. It is a tricky thing to navigate. And honesty is definitely best. This is a place for artistic expression... It's not American fucking Idol. And there is something about it that just seems ethically wrong to me. If you change the way I sound to bend to your liking, I am just being used. It's no longer a collaboration of art, it is someone literally using someone else to get the result they, and only they want.
Ask the question/have the discussion up front so you all know where you stand from the off - and - its pretty obvious from you bio - which is great way to state it - ask them to read your profile first
I will say, there are people here who are super awesome in that they will always ask you first, or tell you where you are off and give you the opportunity to correct it, and some who never use any pitch correction and allow it to be completely organic. And I appreciate that level of respect. So thank you.... and you all know exactly who you are :) It's odd because when I first joined this site, and well before, it never once occurred to me that anyone would ever do such a thing unless the singer asked them to... Maybe because to me, it sounds like shit, and anyone mixing would know it sounds like shit, but a bad singer might not care, or it might sound better than them so they want this done to their vocal. Do people really enjoy hearing a vocalist sound robotic? It's like nails on a chalkboard to me, personally, no matter who is singing.
i've read this. i like your stuff. i would say that your music obviously doesn't beg for that plasticky ultra-autotuned sound, anyone doing that is just wrong. it's meant to be raw music and i totally get that. that said, you CAN be pitchy. it's only natural that the mixer is going to take a stab at fixing some of those flat/sharp notes. it's pretty standard procedure. i would also like to say accepting pitchiness as though it is a feature and not a bug, as though it is an aesthetic decision and not poor execution is going to have bad results in the long run. no offence. i've listened to plenty of raw, emotional music and it is, imo, very very rarely pitchy. i think all genres have pitchiness as something that should very very rarely be considered acceptable. i could be wrong on that though. take one song that is as you say. raw but emotional and it has some pitchy spots but the performance works and the singer sells it. now take six of that type of song and listen to them in sequence. the first song might sound good, maybe even the second but i'd bet ya by the end of listening to those 6 tracks i, for one, would be pretty sick of it. i've been there a million times though btw. i often can't seem to nail things when singing over a recorded track with headphones on. and btw a lot of the stuff i've heard from you that was pitchy is just demos so i'm really not judging or anything. for all i know you've already fixed 'em. it's all a process. something you might wanna try. if someone has submitted a track that is fixing the pitchiness and you accept the melody is fixed but feel something is lost in the process. try re-recording your vocal while singing along with the pitch corrected vocal. it can really work wonders having the melody your aiming for in the headphones and singing along to it. anyway, that's my two cents.
Yea. I agree. I am very aware that most engineers use pitch correction. But there is a fine line between subtle correction and just blatant alteration. If something is that pitchy or off, it would be nice for the engineer to let me know so I can fix it before making me robotic and plastic sounding. And good engineers will ask for a retake and let you know where it's happening and would never pitch correct in a way that sounds robotic or plastic in the first place unless the singer is aiming for that sound and has relayed that to the engineer. I am speaking of the very obvious changes. Sometimes taking the entire song in a completely different direction due to notes being changed based on the mixer's preference and not because anything is actually performed out of key. In my opinion, if pitch correction changes the singer's actual voice, as in the tonal qualities, and is noticeable, or aims to get a different note out of the singer, it should not be done without talking to the singer first. That's all I am saying.
have you ever applied an auto tune device to someones vocal and then used a midi keyboard to play the notes in real time? it can be quite fun, is all i'm saying. i don't really do it anymore but i used to do it all the time. dub and i once took a backing vocal of a folk song and turned it into a weird epic synthy trip hoppy song. the vocal DID NOT sound right or natural. formants were flying everywhere but i gotta say i still think it's a pretty cool song. and the singer was nice about it. you can always just spin that type of stuff off and let them have their fun.
Most of my lyrics are quite personal and akin to a journal. Sure I have stuff that I write that is kitschy or silly and I'm fine with people having fun with those, but for the most part, I write songs and lyrics that are full of emotion and I contribute my vocals and lyrics to music that moves me. As I said, for me it's emotional, it's an outlet, it's an audible document of how something made me feel. It's not technical, it's not forced, it is raw. And it feels like a part of me is being taken away when that gets taken away. I become numb to something that once made me feel something. If you don't write music this way, I imagine it's a difficult thing to understand. But even if you don't, you still understand that it is art. I assumed people would consult the artist before altering their art, but I was wrong.
And to be clear, I am very aware that I am not a great vocalist, and make it well known. So this has nothing to do with me thinking I sound terrific. What I am, is real. I am no diva. But I am not fake. So to hear my vocal sound fake goes against everything I am.
i hear ya there. nothing wrong with wanting to maintain ownership over that stuff, it's yours after all. idk if i already suggested it, but it might also be useful to have a condensed version of what you're saying here right in your bio too. just to make it clear. that would certainly deter me if i saw it and i'm absolutely the person who will never ask permission to change a vocal in any way i please for my own amusement. and maybe keep in mind that these people are just submitting little demos on kompoz (i'm assuming). as long as they aren't releasing it to the wider world, no harm no foul. just a bit of fun. and, for the record, i like your voice and especially your writing. i'd agree that you have your own style that you obviously should be able to control in any way you please. i wish you nothing but the best. XD
Thanks. And this post was not meant to be any kind of argument, or even about me personally. I am simply asking audio engineers about the ethics and etiquette surrounding the subject. The more I learn about these things, the easier it is to work with others. I know I was hell to work with at first because I knew nothing. But I asked questions and I keep asking questions. I have learned a ton since then and I know I am far easier to work with than I originally was, but I also know there is still a ton of stuff I don't know.
Hey Steph, I'm not an engineer by a long shot but I would hate to hear your great raw emotion and genuine vibe swamped by autotune! I generally dislike that sound but if for some reason I did want to do that to vocals I'd ask first. If someone did that to your vocals without asking I don't think you'd be in the wrong to request they take the autotune off or delete your track from the collab.
Thanks, John! It just seems wrong to do that to any singer without consulting them first, ya know? I'm just trying to figure out what's what. I don't want to come out of the gate like "no autotune blah blah blah" because that may be offensive to some audio engineers who use it properly, but I've found that a ton of people believe it's totally fine to apply it as liberally as they'd like, and that just seems wrong to me. So, I'm just trying to learn what audio engineers think to be the proper etiquette on how to approach the topic, is all :)
I played Nothing for my partner tonight and the first thing she said was PJ Harvey. Who she loves. So there is that. I was like, hey, what about the guitar/
Wait, what's Nothing? haha sorry. I'm super confused!
It was a track you did with doobs. Maybe it had a different name... No Time or something like that? I was playing a bunch of tracks so I'll have to retrace my steps to find it again
Ah.... No Time for That... I SAID COME HERE BOY..... I OWE YOU A RECKONING... Great tune!!! If you listen to it with really good headphones on and the volume up super high, (and maybe you are too...? ;) going into the 2nd verse and out of the 2nd verse.... HOLY SHIT... It's like the song hits a wall of water when the outro begins. It's nuts!!!
that's it! really really good... I'd put it on my playlist
I made a youtube playlist of all of me and Brae's collabs thus far... that are complete... you should check it out... YOU ARE ON IT :) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1wvbedZLDMlUno7sz5JfVghGd0XmUTu5
i'm listening now. really enjoying it. especially swim and invisible so far.
Thanks! <3 Sidenote: Brae never ever alters vocal in any way....
Where pitch is concerned of course!
I'll try to put it carefully before some people get offended here again. Basically, it can only sound as good as the audio material you have. If you don't get the simplest things like timing, choosing the right microphones before recording, miking, tuning the instruments, etc. right from the start, then you can't expect a "professional" result in the end. Poorly edited stems are often available for download, especially for drum tracks. A little bit about tracks here on Kompoz. Vocals: Almost 95 percent of the time an engineer only has a single take instead of working with 5 or 6 takes. In addition, this is also recorded in the most inconvenient room, so that the signal is full of room modes. Compressors and reverb were already used during the recording or were added later, mostly incorrectly set or a preset is selected completely inappropriately. There are often fluctuations in the frequencies because the distance to the microphone varies during recording (near, far). Auto tune: When used as an effect, it is certainly very funny and is often used in certain genres. But to correct small things we prefer to use Melodyne here and sometimes the correction tool in the DAW is sufficient. But if the vocal take is that crooked or wrong, you should re-record the take. Over and over again. At the end you choose five to six takes to work with (as mentioned above). Guitars/Bass: Here, too, it often happens that the recordings are actually not usable. With distorted guitars, especially in the high gain range, the gain controller is used incorrectly for studio recordings. The sound may sound great solo, but it won't work in the overall mix. Often a second, third or even fourth guitar is added. In the end you only have a mush of sound. The whole thing would be much easier if the audio engineer had the DI signal available. The same goes for bass. drums: This is probably the hardest part when it comes to home recording. There is a wide variety of songs and genres here on Kompoz. Each one requires a specific type of drum tuning and the choice of room also plays a role. Not everyone can deliver that. But there are now also ways to make a snare or bass drum that doesn't sound good sound really good. But for this you need the individual tracks instead of complete stems. I would now like to go into the audio files as they are made available here: Some of them are mp3, some wav. Some are 16 bit, some are 24 bit and some are 32 bit. Some run in timing, some don't. Some are in 44.1khz others in 48khz. And all this in a single project. A chaos. As you can see, the basic requirements are usually not correct at all. I don't want to go into detail about the mixing itself. Otherwise the post will be too long. Just a quick side note: I offered you my help, but then I didn't hear from you again.
Really? When? I really do make an effort to acknowledge people reaching out and I am sorry if I left you hanging. I would never do that on purpose. And I agree and I have learned a ton since I first joined. I was terrible at first. Bad equipment, bad recordings, just bad. But the more I ask questions like this, the more I learn. And I agree that there should be more vocal takes to work with and would much prefer an engineer to let me know so that I can try to correct whatever the issue is, otherwise, I will just keep making the same mistake.
Check your mail, but your apology is accepted :)) I think most are here for the fun of the hobby. Hardly anyone has the necessary equipment to be able to work reasonably professionally. Especially when it comes to mixing. There is also a lot of ignorance involved. Also, don't compare studio mixing to live mixing. A good mix takes time. It's not just done in one evening.
Totally agree with Impulse from his first letter to the last. And I would like to add my 2cents worth, if I may .... The process of a song from the brilliant lyrics or composing instruments until the finished mastered product is a long and various one. With all the hurdles thrown left and right like Impulse mentioned. I tend to view this chain of critical events separately ... Lyricist, singer, drummer, guitar player, arranger, producer, mix engineer, mastering engineer .... (I did omit several, just trying to make this point ...) I always ask if the artist wishes me to "produce" on top of mixing and mastering ... a producer or co-producer takes executive decisions based on style, on experience, on many factors such as the vibe of the song and so forth .... If I am called to produce, I will take into consideration what is wished for ... for instruments that are tuned at A440 and such, there's not much to do, unless a chord has been done with a false note, using Melodyne to correct that note alone will do the job. Singers, on the other hand, have the most beautiful instrument of all, and IS the most difficult to master .... so at times, a flat note may appear, a syllable too low or high, a slight shift in the timing .... those can be corrected by a slight nudge with Melodyne .... And it is imperceptible. By reading your post, Steph, I fear someone had the temerity or altering your vocals in more than imperceptible fashion .... The person must have decided he/she was "producing" the song and went with personal tastes and not the artist's view (yours) ... I always ask what lattitudes I can take over an artist's creation ... Be it mixing/mastering only....some production.... create an instrument track or whatnot ... Communication is key, and most importantly when you live thousands of kilometers/miles from each other, like here, on Kompoz. To finish, I would like to stress that "Public" creations will bring many to eat from your freely available sonic buffet ... a "Private" project will give you the reins to "produce" and decide what you wish for your creation (s) (and mostly, what you do NOT want added in!) We ALL did start somewhere, sometime ... find those who help and complement you, not try to change you. :) Cheers, and never stop creating :)
Thank you Goyeah, I also fully agree with your post. Much more can be added, but there are enough books on the market to study. I would also recommend the one or another YouTube video, but beware, there is also a lot of nonsense. Perhaps Warren Huart and his videos would be a good place to start. Just have a look.
Hey Steph, .. thanks for doing, what you do here. Kind of tricky, .. there's probably people here that grew up, with autotune. I don't mind pitch variations, myself (some call this, a tin ear) .. but, some do. Maybe this "autotune age" has trained people to dislike dissonance? Yeah, why not say something to somebody new to you, about not autotuning, when you upload your tracks .. and as time goes along, .. you become familiar with them, and some of them, to you .. you'll already have this understanding, without having to restate it? It seems like you work, very hard, at this.
I agree that there is definitely a generational divide. And yes, I created this post because I am trying to figure out how I can avoid having to have this conversation every single time I work with someone. It's always an awkward one and can sometimes be a bit stressful, and that is the opposite of why I am here! I also really wanted to understand, from an engineer's point of view, the ethical aspect of it all. It just seems really wrong to me for someone to alter your voice without your consent. I guess there is a fine line between effects and pitch correction for most people. For me, there is a very bold line and crossing it without talking to me first is offensive. As I said in a few responses, so much of what I sing is actually meant to sound that way. It is a matter of style. This is art and there are no rules. I can hear when I am so flat or sharp that it sounds like shit and I fix it.
Interesting discussion. I hear about a growing trend to deliberately not 'be in tune' (pitch perfect) as an artistic choice - a kind of rebellion against 'the perfect and boring' - I like this idea.
Dave Matthews, .. it was pointed out to me, .. is not very in tune. I can't imagine anybody else singing his part, though.
For me, it's not so much a rebellion. It's my style, it's just the way I do it. I've always sung around notes or beats or whatever. It keeps the delivery from being the same every time. I sing best in the keys that most don't naturally consider singing in. For instance, I am most comfortable singing in B Flat when singing falsetto, which is not a key that people tend toward.
Good post! You seem to come from the early 90's alt-rock ethos. There was no autotune used back then. However it has crept into today's alt music. That being said, back when I was active here, (i am finally creating new projects in my DAW again as of this month...) I always aimed to call the shots on the vocal mix and processing. I almost never left a dry sep up for others to manipulate. Once its out there you have no comtrol. There are times autotune works quite well if you are open to it and had that sound in mind. Almost all of my BV's no matter had pitch correction on them, further down in the mix and mostly undetectable, because I am not as experienced in BV's and I knew it would take a great amount of time to completely nail the pitch, which for a backing vocal needs to be very accurate. If you don't want to or can't take over your own vocal mix, then I suggest, as another agreed, to say something obvious in your profile about not wanting obvious autotune.
God bless 90s alt/indie rock! Yes, you are right. And I've never considered putting seps up that aren't dry. I assumed it would make it difficult for an engineer to mix everything, but perhaps I should try it out! I do realize I need better equipment and I also know that I can be pitchy or often sing around notes, but I do much of that intentionally. I can hear when I am obviously too sharp or flat, and I fix it, but most of it goes "outside the lines" on purpose.
If you don't put up dry seps, then when requested you can give your blurb about not wanting autotune. It forces a conversation that may not be happening for you with collaborators here. You can send the seps some other way to collaborators -- that understand where you are coming from, after going over that. Just my .02
I think anyone who wants to work with you should be able to deduce at first listen that you're a punk singer at heart. Punk flies by a totally different set of rules. Sid Vicious, and Siouxsie Sioux were notoriously pitchy and they're punk Gods. No one auto tuned them, even thinking about it is blasphemy. https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/auto-tune-i-never-needed-it-when-i-produced-the-smiths-39672 You don't have to say up front what should be obvious but maybe when the song is further along you lay down the law. Producers really need to know that autotuning without a singers permission is a serious violation and altering a melody is basically fucking with intellectual property. Like I get that great new things can spawn from using vocals like what softie was talking about but ffs just be courteous and ask.
lol, you might wanna skip the next version of perpetual motion that i'm gonna upload. liberties were taken. please understand, i just do what i think sounds cool, it's my process. that said, if you say no go. it never leaves kompoz. no prob, this is just a hobby.
I think you really nailed it. The problem seems to stem from a lack of understanding or at least trying to understand the other musician/engineer. In a day I've learned that I personally need to be more proactive and seek out and listen to engineers who tend toward my style. The same holds true for engineers, they should listen to what I have created to understand me better.
Do engineers ever listen to the vocal against the music without looking at their DAW? I don't think pitch correction should even be applied unless you actually hear something that sounds off because much of the time, the delivery is intentional and it doesn't sound "pitchy" or flat.
A mix engineer is given audio tracks of the individual recorded instruments to work with. Their job consists of balancing the relative impact of each audio stream, by putting them through effects processors, and having the right amount (dry/wet ratio) of each. Music Producers are responsible for determining and leading the creative and technical aspects of recordings, whether for a single song, an album, or a soundtrack. You need a real mix engineer ... he/she will not tamper the creativeness of the song. Just balance the tracks, enhance certain aspects of each's sonic spectrum and bring cohesiveness to all of the tracks put together, ready for mastering.
If you want my extra honest opinion, I think anyone who infringes on someone's art by altering notes, pitch/tonal qualities, in any way without getting consent from the vocalist, should get some type of offense for doing so. Like the first offense, suspended from the site for x amount of time, 2nd, completely banned. That is just how strongly I personally feel about it. I know it may seem extreme, but it is an extremely shitty thing to do. That would make things hella easy, b/c I wouldn't have to have that awkward conversation nearly as much as I do now.
I took a look at the whole thing. I have to say you are being very unfair to the person this is all about. As far as I can tell, you loaded a song idea into your project. This consists of a main vocal track and a guide guitar track. It can no longer be understood who or what exactly you were looking for. Anyway, someone gave you a whole new arrangement. Includes guitar tracks, bass and drums. He then put your vocal track over it. In the chorus, the vocal line doesn't match the new arrangement. He then tried to adjust the problem with the help of pitch correction. I don't know how you communicated afterwards. It's a common practice when it comes to production or songwriting. Another topic of its own. In any case, it would have been more than enough to simply adjust and re-record the vocals. This is typical studio work. This is how songs are made! Anyway, it's a way to work on song ideas, especially when you live hundreds of miles apart. So I don't understand all the fuss here. Especially since a spin was made of the project. Just have a go and relax :))
He actually did it respectfully b/c he uploaded the seps for every single change he made to my voice first.
And most of all... How is it a fuss or unfair to ask a perfectly reasonable question, which is what the post is in the first place? I am not trying to argue, merely understand the ethical implications of altering someone's voice without their consent, and the proper etiquette for requesting that your vocals are not changed in such a way. It is a very big deal to me because it is my voice. They are my words. My experiences. My pain. My emotions. They mean a great deal to me. Writing is how I cope with the atrocities and the beauty of this world and my voice is the medium I use to express this. The chord progressions I choose to play on my guitar support the words and the presentation of my vocal. If someone alters the notes I am singing, someone takes all of that away. But, like I said, this post is not meant to be a platform to argue the matter, but a platform where I can get answers and learn about it so that I know how to communicate it and know when someone has crossed the line. That is all I wanted to know.
This is an interesting post. To answer your question "Do I need to immediately make this known prior to mixing?" For me the answer is YES. It is not offensive, you are being direct and honest. If someone doesn't respect your opinion, you should not be working with this person anymore. Communication is simply sending him/her a (standard) message about your thoughts on this, perhaps along with your specifics for that song. If he/she has a different opinion, you can choose to discuss it together in a private conversation or via the comments, whichever you prefer.
Thank you, Ellen! That is exactly what I was aiming to learn. So, communicate this first, no one will be offended, and all will be well!
no one will be offended, and all will be well -> Well... that's not guaranteed :) There are always a few rotten eggs in K-town who don't know how to deal with this and get deeply offended when you express your opinion. And they will respond to you very disrespectful. Luckily this is very rare and I've only had to deal with this once or twice. Don't let it discourage you. Also if the editing and altering of your vocals happens before the mixing stage, then you are probably dealing with a fellow songwriter and/or producer. To prevent this, you can put your thoughts in the (dashboard) description beforehand or ask them to read your bio. There is also no guarantee that this will be read ha, but at least you can refer to it when it happens so you can discuss it. I hope this helps. Communication can sometimes be difficult, especially online.
I agree with EllenDXY; to avoid misconceptions talk straight with collaborators what you like and not. Everyone has own style, opinions as well as limits for compromises. You can?t please everybody, same challenge in local band scene as in global remote collaboration; to find people with somewhat similar musical visions.
A couple of things worth noting> Engineers of many of the biggest stars of music today rely on auto tune or similar products for that perfect pitch. Including its use as an effect to perfectly sung vocals. Im sure some use it for live shows. I agree, it should be used sparingly. If the vocals are off to the point its use is noticeable then you need a re-sing. In closing who the hell used auto tune on Wire n Wood? After years of listening to his art, hes clearly on the money withing micro cents~ cheers all!
"The problem with using autotune to correct pitch, is that it is inherently unethical. There are a myriad of sonically cool and creative uses for this tool, I'm certain. But in terms of altering ("improving") a singer's performance, it then becomes like using performance enhancers in the olympics or airbrushing human models in advertising images." (Ali Garrison) John Arquette: "Part of pitch correcting is leaving some of the imperfections imperfect so the voice still sounds natural, and not robotic or synthesized." More from John Arquette (a music producer who specializes in pitch correction) "...close my eyes while listening to the track. If everything sounds smooth, then it?s good to go. It?s easier to pay attention to the way it sounds if you can?t see where one part ends and another begins. I've determined that the issue seems to be that many "audio engineers" here, do not adhere to the rule of subtlety that professionals do. So maybe I've learned something, and hopefully, some of the engineers who use this tool extremely liberally have learned something too!
you ever listen to the knife - silent shout or bon iver - 22, a million. those are both records near and dear to my heart that use auto-tune and other tricks quite liberally. i'd be curious your opinion. the knife in particular i'd think might be right up your alley. i'd argue that it's not a matter of professionalism but a matter of taste plain and simple. just cuz you probably associate it with middle of the road pop acts doesn't mean that it has no artistic merit whatsoever.
frankly, you're starting to come off as small minded and petty imo.
Oh Karen Dreijer...Fever Ray also good to listen to. Always a pleasure to hear: Röyksopp, What Else Is There Sorry, off topic I know :-p
agreed, you hear the new fever ray? it's fire. they're incredible.
You are missing the entire point. I don't care if other vocalists want to use it and like what they produce. More power to them. The point is that I believe no one should take it upon themselves to alter anyone's vocal in such a way without their consent. It's just fucked up and I feel that it should be a no-brainer because someone's art truly is being mutilated. It doesn't matter what you, Fred, Jane, or whoever thinks. What matters is what the person who produced the art believes. This is all getting way out of control. The last post I made was of quotes from known audio engineers about the "rules" of pitch correction. Everything I have read from actual audio engineers and mixers aligns with what I thought to be the proper etiquette of using it in the first place... Only when absolutely necessary and only if it is unnoticeable. Anything beyond that would require another vocal take. Anything beyond normal, as in changing notes and getting fun backing tracks or whatever, must be given consent by the vocalist. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with musical preference, and everything to do with a harsh truth. Many people here who claim to be audio engineers do not adhere to these very basic and very important values. In my opinion, it should be assumed that no vocalist wants this done unless they ask for it. It is baffling to me that people think it's the other way around. I just want to make it easier to work with others. Now I know to immediately let them know my feelings about this, and I guess I will just have to have that conversation over and over again, which I think is ridiculous, personally. But problem solved. Question answered. I'm not into drama and this whole thing is getting way too out of line and off topic entirely.
i will begrudgingly admit that your right, i've read it back and i was missing your point. i'm not happy about it, but i apologize. i'm sorry.
It's all good. If anything, I think we've all learned quite a bit from all of this.
Steph, your view on this is absolutely correct. I also agree with you there to 93%;) But the discussion about it leads to nothing, just like the discussion about the "Loudness War". More than enough audio engineers have given their two cents. And? Did anyone care? nope Nobody was interested. hug :)
well steph ya makin way to much sense i agree a baziliion percent...)
thanks for illustrating my point demo.
exactly! lol Post deletion incoming!
If the gist of this post is to point out that it is OK to sing out of tune...possibly even revered in some far-flung parallel universe...maybe there is some hope for me yet:)